God's simple plan of salvation

[F-16 CHIEF]

Well, since this section is new, I'll provide what the Bible says about how to ensure that you are forgiven, going to heaven, and in a relationship with Jesus. Again, this is what the Bible says. I'm not arguing against anyone about this. I'm simply providing what the Bible says is necessary to know that you are saved. If you disagree, cool. If you agree, cooler. Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just getting this forum started. Fell free to sticky this. :)

First thing to know. God loves you. You're special. You're important. You're here for a purpose. And doggone it, people like you. (SNL reference)

First of all, we've all sinned. Everyone has messed up. The Bible tells us that.

Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

The price of that sin is death.

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

GREAT NEWS THOUGH! Jesus died for us.

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Only Jesus, not works, can save you!

Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

It's faith, not works that gets you to Heaven!

Eph 2:8-9:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast

[Prometheus168]

It is as simple as F16 Chief says.... Confess that Jesus Christ is your Savior, believe it in your heart.. and you are saved... its that easy... Jesus did the hard part for us when he was tortured and died on the cross of Salvation.......

Rusty

[swampdragon]

I'm not allowed to reply...but...



* Who was the greatest sinner in the Bible?

Moses, he broke all the commandments at once.

:roflwithfeetcv2:

[Solidus-snake]

You know, I wish I COULD believe that this was all that you had to do to recieve everlasting life acording to the bible but...

Read the whole thing or even more of it, and you will discover there is FAR more to do that whats mentioned here. Funny thing is that it also says that thses things ARE all that you need to do, but then turns around and says that this isnt enough.

[swampdragon]

You know, I wish I COULD believe that this was all that you had to do to recieve everlasting life acording to the bible but...

Read the whole thing or even more of it, and you will discover there is FAR more to do that whats mentioned here. Funny thing is that it also says that thses things ARE all that you need to do, but then turns around and says that this isnt enough.

Agreed.

[F-16 CHIEF]

You know, I wish I COULD believe that this was all that you had to do to recieve everlasting life acording to the bible but...

Read the whole thing or even more of it, and you will discover there is FAR more to do that whats mentioned here. Funny thing is that it also says that thses things ARE all that you need to do, but then turns around and says that this isnt enough.

Can we start another thread and discuss rationally?

I think the Bible is very consistent with the plan of salvation. It repeatedly says it's grace by faith. At no point does it ever throw in more requirements.

Some people point to the book of James where he says "faith without works is dead." But, that's faith, not your salvation or your soul. It doesn't say you burn in hell without good works. It says your faith is dead. Again, not your soul.

[ltorlo64]

Can we start another thread and discuss rationally?

I think the Bible is very consistent with the plan of salvation. It repeatedly says it's grace by faith. At no point does it ever throw in more requirements.

Some people point to the book of James where he says "faith without works is dead." But, that's faith, not your salvation or your soul. It doesn't say you burn in hell without good works. It says your faith is dead. Again, not your soul.

You forgot about Eph. 2:10 which says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It is faith that saves us, it is works that show our faith. You cannot have one without the other. That is not to say that we are working for our salvation. There is nothing we can ever do to earn God dieing for us after we rebelled so that we can live with Him. But to say that it is not important that we repent and follow God's law is to blaspheme God's name (Romans 2:17-24).

It is not God's intent that salvation be granted to those who are not willing to change and leave their rebellious ways to become like Him.

[swampdragon]

Can we start another thread and discuss rationally?

I think the Bible is very consistent with the plan of salvation. It repeatedly says it's grace by faith. At no point does it ever throw in more requirements.

Some people point to the book of James where he says "faith without works is dead." But, that's faith, not your salvation or your soul. It doesn't say you burn in hell without good works. It says your faith is dead. Again, not your soul.

I found a video once that sort of addresses this topic.
It "is" interesting and informative to a degree.
However....it's also somewhat sarcastic at times (which I think detracts from some of it's substance) but it does fit this discussion.
It raises some very interesting points about going to heaven, and lists a lot of other things in addition to John 3-16

You'd have to take it with a grain of salt however, because it "did" come from an Atheist website.
(Yep. I visit them all. Catholic, Atheist, Satanist, Christian, Muslim, etc....lol)

It has turned into a multi-page thread every place I've ever posted it! ha ha ha.

[ltorlo64]

I found a video once that sort of addresses this topic.
It "is" interesting and informative to a degree.
However....it's also somewhat sarcastic at times (which I think detracts from some of it's substance) but it does fit this discussion.
It raises some very interesting points about going to heaven, and lists a lot of other things in addition to John 3-16

If it is the video where the guy says that Jesus promoted canabalism, you don't need to post it again. His taking of things out of context to try to make the Bible look illogical only pointed out his bias. It was too easy to show his statements to be wrong. You have had some good questions, that guy was just argumenative. (You are argumenative too, but you show knowledge and understanding in your arguments.)

[swampdragon]

If it is the video where the guy says that Jesus promoted canabalism, you don't need to post it again. His taking of things out of context to try to make the Bible look illogical only pointed out his bias. It was too easy to show his statements to be wrong. You have had some good questions, that guy was just argumenative. (You are argumenative too, but you show knowledge and understanding in your arguments.)

No. It was the one about the 8-slices of the pie.
All the things Jesus says throughout the Bible to different people about how to be saved and get into heaven.

But to keep with the "argumentative" spirit...the Bible "is" illogical. ha ha ha.

I'll post it in a new thread, and hopefully CHIEF won't blame "me" for what they maker of the video is saying.

[swampdragon]

(You are argumenative too, but you show knowledge and understanding in your arguments.)


Was than an insult or a compliment?

:lool:

[F-16 CHIEF]

You forgot about Eph. 2:10 which says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It is faith that saves us, it is works that show our faith. You cannot have one without the other.

Sure you can. Is your faith at an all time high every single day? Nope. None of us have perfect faith.

What's key to remember is that the Bible tells us that we are but filthy rags to him. It goes on to tell us that none of us are righteous, no, not one.

So, even with all the great works in the world, we would still be complete failures. One sin and we're done. The great thing is that saved people have their sins forgiven forever. It was appointed ONCE for Christ to die for us. We will fail. We will not be perfect. There will be bad days, weeks, months, and for some, years.

It still doesn't mean that we are not saved by anything but grace. To think that works has one thing to do with salvation is completely wrong. That's Lordship salvation, and it's completely against what the New Testament and Jesus tells us.

I guess Peter is burning in hell. He denied Jesus at the time he needed him the most. Not once, but twice. No works there. He was ashamed and he denied Jesus. But, when Jesus returned, did he bring that up in Peter's face? Nope. Why? Because he was forgiven. It's the blood. Peter was saved by the blood of Jesus. His sins were so far removed from him that the Savior didn't even mention the fact that he was betrayed when he needed a friend.

[swampdragon]

Sure you can. Is your faith at an all time high every single day? Nope. None of us have perfect faith.

What's key to remember is that the Bible tells us that we are but filthy rags to him. It goes on to tell us that none of us are righteous, no, not one.

So, even with all the great works in the world, we would still be complete failures. One sin and we're done. The great thing is that saved people have their sins forgiven forever. It was appointed ONCE for Christ to die for us. We will fail. We will not be perfect. There will be bad days, weeks, months, and for some, years.

It still doesn't mean that we are not saved by anything but grace. To think that works has one thing to do with salvation is completely wrong. That's Lordship salvation, and it's completely against what the New Testament and Jesus tells us.

I guess Peter is burning in hell. He denied Jesus at the time he needed him the most. Not once, but twice. No works there. He was ashamed and he denied Jesus. But, when Jesus returned, did he bring that up in Peter's face? Nope. Why? Because he was forgiven. It's the blood. Peter was saved by the blood of Jesus. His sins were so far removed from him that the Savior didn't even mention the fact that he was betrayed when he needed a friend.

Jesus tells us all sorts of stuff.

And why would you want to worship somebody who thinks you are a filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure?
Why would you love somebody who punished you, and everybody else in your family all the way back to Adam and Eve for something YOU didn't even do?
Yet...HE is supposed to be loving and perfect?
Nope.
I'm not buying it for a second.

[ltorlo64]

Was than an insult or a compliment?

:lool:

Take it as you will, though I was not trying to be mean.

[Paladin]

...And why would you want to worship somebody who thinks you are a filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure? Why would you love somebody who punished you, and everybody else in your family all the way back to Adam and Eve for something YOU didn't even do?...

Swampy, I cannot speak for the experiences of others. Nor would I want to. In the thing you have stated above, I offer no judgement, no indictment. I would share my own experience. And I do so without seeking to alter the perspective of others.

I have never been punished by God. Not for something I have done, said, or thought. Or failed to do, say, or think. Whether my actions or failures were intentional or otherwise. Nor for anything I have not done.

Also, I have never felt that God thought I was a filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure. Actually, the opposite is true.

[swampdragon]

Swampy, I cannot speak for the experiences of others. Nor would I want to. In the thing you have stated above, I offer no judgement, no indictment. I would share my own experience. And I do so without seeking to alter the perspective of others.

I have never been punished by God. Not for something I have done, said, or thought. Or failed to do, say, or think. Whether my actions or failures were intentional or otherwise. Nor for anything I have not done.

Also, I have never felt that God thought I was a filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure. Actually, the opposite is true.

OK.
I was just questioning why CHIEF said all that.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Jesus did the hard part for us when he was tortured and died on the cross of Salvation.......

Rusty

Oh for the love of...

Stop putting all your bad stuff on Jesus! Those are your short commings, not his. Why should he have to foot the bill for that?

Let that poor man come down from the cross! Y'all have kept him nailed up there fo two thousand years!

[LAGC]

So let me get this straight. I can "profess my belief in Jesus" and become "saved", then go forth and rape and murder people knowing full well I'm still going to Heaven, since after all its just "faith" that counts, not good "works." Gotcha.

I'm sure there's many people on Death Row who figure the same way...

[F-16 CHIEF]

Yes, you can. The problem is you've assigned a point value to sin. You see a rape or murder as being really bad, but a lie or not lusting after a woman as a little one. Something not that grevious.

BUT, the Bible says that a sin is a sin to God. He tells us that not one person on this planet is perfect. One sin is all it takes to keep you out of Heaven. That sin is not important. One is all it takes. Murder, rape, lie, etc.. They're all the same. Any sin seperates us from God. Jesus sacrafice is the only way to get to Heaven. You either call on his name and become saved or not.

Romans 10:13. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

It's not my idea, it's the Bible.

[HDR]

There is a small church on a road near here. They have a sign out front and recently the message was "Heaven is a journey not a destination."

[swampdragon]

Swampy, I cannot speak for the experiences of others. Nor would I want to. In the thing you have stated above, I offer no judgement, no indictment. I would share my own experience. And I do so without seeking to alter the perspective of others.

I have never been punished by God. Not for something I have done, said, or thought. Or failed to do, say, or think. Whether my actions or failures were intentional or otherwise. Nor for anything I have not done.

Also, I have never felt that God thought I was a filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure. Actually, the opposite is true.

So you don't believe in original/ancestral sin?

[Paladin]

So you don't believe in original/ancestral sin?

Sure, I believe in it. I've just never been punished for it by God. And never felt God felt I was a "filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure".

I really like Him. And I get the sense that He likes me too.

What's funny is I feel that religious people get upset with me because; I feel this way about God, and believe He feels the same about me.

The religious folks are the ones that attempt to interfere in God's and my relationship. And it is simply none of their business...

[swampdragon]

Sure, I believe in it. I've just never been punished for it by God. And never felt God felt I was a "filthy rag, unrighteous and a complete failure".

I really like Him. And I get the sense that He likes me too.

What's funny is I feel that religious people get upset with me because; I feel this way about God, and believe He feels the same about me.

The religious folks are the ones that attempt to interfere in God's and my relationship. And it is simply none of their business...

The filthy rag thing wasn't something "I" originally said.
I was quoting somebody else and asking about it.
Frankly, it makes no sense to me either.
I agree with you here.

[F-16 CHIEF]

The Bible says we are like filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

It also says we aren't righteous.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


If we were righteous, then why would Jesus come and die for us? We would be able to make it to Heaven without his help. But, the Bible clearly states that this isn't possible. For all have sinned. So it means, there's none righteous.

[LAGC]

The Bible says we are like filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

It also says we aren't righteous.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Do you teach your kids that? That they are filthy and unrighteous? Doesn't seem like a very good self-esteem builder. With as high as teen suicide is in this overly-religious county of ours, you'd think we'd teach kids that they were worthy, not inferior.

Is that really the only way you can get people into your church, by invoking fear and despair? Truly?

[F-16 CHIEF]

No, I teach my child that God and Jesus love her. I also teach her that nobody is perfect. We all sin and fall short of God's standards.

I'll never teach her that she's worthy of going to Heaven based on her own "goodness". That's a man made idea and it disagrees with the Bible. I refuse to let her live in a "feel good - do it" type of a world.

There is still right and wrong in this world.

[Solidus-snake]

Srry but i really dont think it works that way, once saved you are most certainly not always saved.

If it was so easy and all you had to do, then why are you commanded to remember the sabbath?

Jesus said to remember his commandments and follow them, why then should you care if your saved and got your ticket?

Why do you pray?

Why did he tell the rich man to sell his possessions?

Why did he say to be more righteous than the pharises?

Because it isnt all that simple.

[swampdragon]

Srry but i really dont think it works that way, once saved you are most certainly not always saved.

If it was so easy and all you had to do, then why are you commanded to remember the sabbath?

Jesus said to remember his commandments and follow them, why then should you care if your saved and got your ticket?

Why do you pray?

Why did he tell the rich man to sell his possessions?

Why did he say to be more righteous than the pharises?

Because it isnt all that simple.

It's never been that simple.

[F-16 CHIEF]

Solidius, I'd like to take the Bible and answer what you just asked.

The Sabbath is for us to rest. Just like God did. We are to rest.

You follow the commandments because like the Bible says, when you are saved, you become a new man. You want to live a life that's like Christ. Just because you're forgiven, doesn't mean you go nuts. If you are a Christian, or a follower of Christ, then you would want to be Christ like. If he truly lives in your heart, then you will want to keep the Commandments.

We pray because God tells us to. John 14:13-14 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

Swampy and I talked about the rich man. I think God was testing him to see what his God was. Posessions or Jesus. He chose posessions.

He wants us to keep the commandments and not act like the Pharisees.

I REALLY want to address your first statement. If you are truly saved, you are most certainly always saved. The Bible says so.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." —1st John 5:13

1st Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit"

If Jesus is the perfect payment for sins, why would perfection die twice? He wouldn't. If he needed to die again, that would mean he wasn't good enough the first time.

Romans, 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any her creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, nothing can seperate us.

Last, but not least. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace ye are saved.

So, if doing good can't save you, how could doing bad make you unsaved? It obviously cannot.

[LAGC]

What do you make of this verse, F-16 CHIEF?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." -- Mathew 16:27

[F-16 CHIEF]

What do you make of this verse, F-16 CHIEF?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." -- Mathew 16:27

I believe you'll give an account of your works. It's that your salvation won't be based on it.

[LAGC]

I believe you'll give an account of your works. It's that your salvation won't be based on it.

So it sounds like murderers and rapists who accept Jesus and become Christians won't get a free pass after all? Where do they go? Is there a part of heaven that's blocked off, so they are effectively quarantined from the rest of the souls in the after-life? I mean, how does God further reward people according to their works if everyone makes it to heaven equally?

[ltorlo64]

So it sounds like murderers and rapists who accept Jesus and become Christians won't get a free pass after all? Where do they go? Is there a part of heaven that's blocked off, so they are effectively quarantined from the rest of the souls in the after-life? I mean, how does God further reward people according to their works if everyone makes it to heaven equally?

You are asking a question that has two different distinct parts, but you are trying to blend them into one.

The first part of the question has to do with salvation. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that "it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast." We also have Isaiah 64:6 that says "all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags." Since it is not our works but God's righteousness that our salvation is based on, everyone who accepts Him goes to heaven equally. There is no special place in heaven for different people. If you read Revelation 21 you see that not only does everyone live in the presence of God, but he also has a special tree whose leaves are for the "healing of the nations".

The second part of your question has to do with the rewards that God will give those who overcome. These are talked about in various places. One of them is II Timothy 4, where Paul says he has "fought the good fight, finished the course, he had kept the faith. Now there is laid up for him a righteous crown" which God will give to him. The 7 Letters that John relates in Revelation also discuss some of the rewards that will be given to those who have followed God.

We also need to try to see this as God does. He provided us with 10 Commandments to give us a glimpse of his character. If we break any portion of the Commandments, we have broken them all (James 2:10). So, while we see a huge difference between the person who lies and the person who kills, God just sees a person who violated His law and does not have His character.

[old Grump]

So it sounds like murderers and rapists who accept Jesus and become Christians won't get a free pass after all? Where do they go? Is there a part of heaven that's blocked off, so they are effectively quarantined from the rest of the souls in the after-life? I mean, how does God further reward people according to their works if everyone makes it to heaven equally?Question of repentance. Repent truly and accept Jesus and you are saved, live the good life as best you can and you are saved. Regretting your sin because you were caught and are being punished for it is not the same as repentance.

[F-16 CHIEF]

So it sounds like murderers and rapists who accept Jesus and become Christians won't get a free pass after all? Where do they go? Is there a part of heaven that's blocked off, so they are effectively quarantined from the rest of the souls in the after-life? I mean, how does God further reward people according to their works if everyone makes it to heaven equally?

No, Murderers and Rapists are just like every other person. What you are doing is assigning a point value system to sin. A lie to my wife is like Rape in God's eyes. A sin is a sin. What effect it has on others can vary greatly, but to God, a sin is a sin.

What you say about equality is apparently not true. Being saved and in Heaven, yes, but your rewards will be different.

While there is much debate, the Bible talks about crowns in Heaven.

http://www.bible-knowledge.com/rewards-in-heaven/

Rather than me type it all up from scratch, this author speaks about what I was referring to. I would prefer that he would use the King James, but there it is. So that's why we feel Heaven will have different rewards according to your works.

[F-16 CHIEF]

live the good life as best you can and you are saved.

Wait, am I taking this out of context? Are you saying that you can be saved by living the good life?

[ltorlo64]

Wait, am I taking this out of context? Are you saying that you can be saved by living the good life?

Not that I have talked to Grump, but you left off the first part of his statement about repenting. That is a big deal. Living the good life shows you repented and accepted Christ but does not save you. It could, however, show that you did not truly repent and as such are not as saved as you would like to believe.

Unless you are talking about the "good life" as in being rich. Then I am just lost!

[old Grump]

One whole sentence, you must repent and then live your life like you meant it. Did I confuse you with the comma?

[swampdragon]

One whole sentence, you must repent and then live your life like you meant it. Did I confuse you with the comma?

I understand the good life part I think.
"If" you mean that as in to try to live peacefully amongst your fellow man, and treat everybody as fairly as you can.

The repent part however.....repent for what?
Wrongs against others, or wrongs against the God of the Bible?

With Christians only being around 1/3 of the world's population...
There are many more people out there who live a good life and also feel bad for the rotten things they've done.
They've made amends, and have done everything they can to not repeat the same ill behaviors again.
They all burn in hell anyways just because they live in some other part of the world and are not all Christians?

[old Grump]

With Christians only being around 1/3 of the world's population...
There are many more people out there who live a good life and also feel bad for the rotten things they've done.
They've made amends, and have done everything they can to not repeat the same ill behaviors again.
They all burn in hell anyways just because they live in some other part of the world and are not all Christians?There are some who believe that, there are some who believe only a limited numbers f believers will go to heaven after the final roll call is made. I believe Jesus died for mankind, all of mankind. I don't believe that God is as petty as some would have you believe.

[308]

Do you teach your kids that? That they are filthy and unrighteous? Doesn't seem like a very good self-esteem builder. With as high as teen suicide is in this overly-religious county of ours, you'd think we'd teach kids that they were worthy, not inferior.

Is that really the only way you can get people into your church, by invoking fear and despair? Truly?
Such a boring old game this is.

The context is not that you or I or little Johnny and Sally are filthy rags and should have that beaten into their heads at an early age...as it appears the religious side of you family may to have done to you.

The context is man's position relative to God's. It's a comparison of anything we do that seems good or righteous as a means of earning anything from God. This in comparison or as measured to God's standard of righteousness.

As if God sits back as says, "wow, if only 308 had said two more hail marys I would have been impressed"...God is not impressed with any of us.

[swampdragon]

Such a boring old game this is.

The context is not that you or I or little Johnny and Sally are filthy rags and should have that beaten into their heads at an early age...as it appears the religious side of you family may to have done to you.

The context is man's position relative to God's. It's a comparison of anything we do that seems good or righteous as a means of earning anything from God. This in comparison or as measured to God's standard of righteousness.

As if God sits back as says, "wow, if only 308 had said two more hail marys I would have been impressed"...God is not impressed with any of us.

So man can never compete with God's righteousness?
Yet....how do you even know what God's righteousness even is?
Seems to me God commanded more mass murders and atrocities than man did when you really read the Bible.
He is EVIL compared to the very Satan and MAN he condemns.

[old Grump]

So man can never compete with God's righteousness?
Yet....how do you even know what God's righteousness even is?
Seems to me God commanded more mass murders and atrocities than man did when you really read the Bible.
He is EVIL compared to the very Satan and MAN he condemns.That was mans doing, not God.

[swampdragon]

That was mans doing, not God.

Clearly, this must mean that man wrote the Bible then and followed his own whims.
Because if you follow the Bible itself as the word of God....well then....the picture becomes much more gruesome.

[ltorlo64]

I understand the good life part I think.
"If" you mean that as in to try to live peacefully amongst your fellow man, and treat everybody as fairly as you can.

The repent part however.....repent for what?
Wrongs against others, or wrongs against the God of the Bible?

With Christians only being around 1/3 of the world's population...
There are many more people out there who live a good life and also feel bad for the rotten things they've done.
They've made amends, and have done everything they can to not repeat the same ill behaviors again.
They all burn in hell anyways just because they live in some other part of the world and are not all Christians?

We are told that if we "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 John 5:13) we will be saved. The question becomes what does it mean to believe on the name of Jesus Christ? If someone believes that Jesus was a person, does that mean that person is saved? If they believe that Jesus existed, but that Jesus was not his name but was Joshua, are they condemed to hell? Just because a person grows up in a place where the Bible is not available so they never hear of Jesus, are they doomed to be lost?

In Romans 2 Paul talks about Gentiles who do the requirements of the law, though they have never seen the law, will be saved. How is this possible if they have not heard the name of Jesus? Because the name of Jesus does not mean the monicker by which Jesus is known, but it is a description of his character. The 10 Commandments are a quick description of God's character, so people who keep God's law even though they have never seen it, will be saved.

What is interesting is that they are saved the same way as those who get on their knees and "accept Jesus as their savior". This is because if you are believing on Jesus character, you are not trusting in your own, even if you are doing righteous things. You realize that even your righteousness is not enough because you have not always made righteous decisions. Though you live a good life, you rely on the forgiveness, mercy and grace of one who you do not know, but who you know exists.

The same criteria is placed on both those that have the Word of God and those that don't. It is to believe on the righteousness of someone else to save you. The only difference is that we who have the Word of God will have less excuse for not doing what it says, especially if we say we believe it.

[swampdragon]

We are told that if we "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 John 5:13) we will be saved. The question becomes what does it mean to believe on the name of Jesus Christ? If someone believes that Jesus was a person, does that mean that person is saved? If they believe that Jesus existed, but that Jesus was not his name but was Joshua, are they condemed to hell? Just because a person grows up in a place where the Bible is not available so they never hear of Jesus, are they doomed to be lost?

In Romans 2 Paul talks about Gentiles who do the requirements of the law, though they have never seen the law, will be saved. How is this possible if they have not heard the name of Jesus? Because the name of Jesus does not mean the monicker by which Jesus is known, but it is a description of his character. The 10 Commandments are a quick description of God's character, so people who keep God's law even though they have never seen it, will be saved.

What is interesting is that they are saved the same way as those who get on their knees and "accept Jesus as their savior". This is because if you are believing on Jesus character, you are not trusting in your own, even if you are doing righteous things. You realize that even your righteousness is not enough because you have not always made righteous decisions. Though you live a good life, you rely on the forgiveness, mercy and grace of one who you do not know, but who you know exists.

The same criteria is placed on both those that have the Word of God and those that don't. It is to believe on the righteousness of someone else to save you. The only difference is that we who have the Word of God will have less excuse for not doing what it says, especially if we say we believe it.

So if people only have to be descent people, then what's the point of religion?
If I had never heard of Jesus, or just didn't care about him, but was still cool....then I'm saved?

[308]

So if people only have to be descent people, then what's the point of religion?
If I had never heard of Jesus, or just didn't care about him, but was still cool....then I'm saved?

How many times do you have to ask this same question and then reject any answer giver to you?
If you don't belive the Biblical account, that is your choice.
Simple as that.

[swampdragon]

How many times do you have to ask this same question and then reject any answer giver to you?
If you don't belive the Biblical account, that is your choice.
Simple as that.

That didn't answer the question.
What biblical account?

Either you must believe in Jesus, or you don't.
ltorlo seems to be saying you can have it either way.
Meanwhile, you, are saying nothing at all.

[Mark Ducati]

One more thing... do you realize how special YOU are to God? Sure, Jesus died on the cross to pay for the sins of all men... but, he'd have done the same thing if YOU were the only person on the earth.

I find it hard to wrap my mind around what he endured for ME.... I one day pray to thank Him personally.

[Full Otto]

So if people only have to be descent people, then what's the point of religion?

In a way I think that is what Christ was saying.
With works and religion people can spend their lives jumping through hoops never really sure if they've done enough.
I think that by getting that off the table the focus can be given to the true nature of what we are intended to be.
With all the different religions I also feel that the message of "there is only one way" was given as a compass more than a comdemnation
just to be able to sort through the shit and lock on to the true force or God.

[old Grump]

Not many of us are willing or able to walk that straight path without a guide book. Why religion, because we need it. If we didn't have it we would have to invent it.

[ltorlo64]

That didn't answer the question.
What biblical account?

Either you must believe in Jesus, or you don't.
ltorlo seems to be saying you can have it either way.
Meanwhile, you, are saying nothing at all.

I am not saying that you can have it either way. I am saying that to believe in Jesus name is to believe in Jesus' character, and the only true way to show that you believe in his character is to emulate it. Because of this, you can know the name of Jesus without ever hearing the name. Next I am saying that we cannot ever truly emulate his character, so we have to rely on Jesus righteousness, grace, mercy and love to save us, it is not something that we can ever do anything to deserve, thus it is free. This is also a part of Jesus' character, and so it is also part of his name. How can I get here? Names in the Bible showed a persons character. There are more than 10 different names that denote God in the Bible, each showing a different part of His character. I am saying that the word is not important, but the definition, for lack of a better term, that is what is important. Because of this, someone can believe on the name without ever knowing that name.

[swampdragon]

In a way I think that is what Christ was saying.
With works and religion people can spend their lives jumping through hoops never really sure if they've done enough.
I think that by getting that off the table the focus can be given to the true nature of what we are intended to be.
With all the different religions I also feel that the message of "there is only one way" was given as a compass more than a comdemnation
just to be able to sort through the shit and lock on to the true force or God.

Now THIS post of yours Otto makes more sense than any other post in this entire thread.
And truly, this is my whole point as well to be honest.
There is NOT "only" just "one" way.
I agree completely.

Jesus has nothing to do with it.
Is he just "one" path of many?
Sure.
Why not I guess.

But to say he is the "only" path would completely condemn 2/3 of the world and all those in the OT who still worshiped the Abrahamic God before Christ was ever even born yet.
That would make zero sense at all.
In the end, Jesus is not the judge anyways.
And GOD may have many faces and names all over the world and throughout time and space.

[ltorlo64]

Now THIS post of yours Otto makes more sense than any other post in this entire thread.
And truly, this is my whole point as well to be honest.
There is NOT "only" just "one" way.
I agree completely.

Jesus has nothing to do with it.
Is he just "one" path of many?
Sure.
Why not I guess.

But to say he is the "only" path would completely condemn 2/3 of the world and all those in the OT who still worshiped the Abrahamic God before Christ was ever even born yet.
That would make zero sense at all.
In the end, Jesus is not the judge anyways.
And GOD may have many faces and names all over the world and throughout time and space.

He only has one character though.

[swampdragon]

I am not saying that you can have it either way. I am saying that to believe in Jesus name is to believe in Jesus' character, and the only true way to show that you believe in his character is to emulate it. Because of this, you can know the name of Jesus without ever hearing the name. Next I am saying that we cannot ever truly emulate his character, so we have to rely on Jesus righteousness, grace, mercy and love to save us, it is not something that we can ever do anything to deserve, thus it is free. This is also a part of Jesus' character, and so it is also part of his name. How can I get here? Names in the Bible showed a persons character. There are more than 10 different names that denote God in the Bible, each showing a different part of His character. I am saying that the word is not important, but the definition, for lack of a better term, that is what is important. Because of this, someone can believe on the name without ever knowing that name.

Man invented Jesus' character traits.
And since his mother was human, then so is he half human.....which would mean he is not 100% perfect either.
Man also invented GOD's character traits too.

That's why in one part of the Bible, God commands us not to murder.
Then in another breath, he commands us to wipe out and totally kill all first born sons.
Does this make sense?
No.
Why?
Because the Bible is NOT the word of a perfect God.
It's the fallible word of confused and contradictory men.

[swampdragon]

He only has one character though.

The character of perfectness?

That's tough to define honestly.
The concept of "perfect" varies wildly from culture to culture.

[F-16 CHIEF]

The 10 Commandments are a quick description of God's character, so people who keep God's law even though they have never seen it, will be saved.


Oh my gosh this is so anti Bible it's not even funny. Do you realize that Jesus explicitly said this isn't true?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

At what point does Jesus say, if you follow the 10 Commandments, you'll be saved. NOBODY comes to the Father except through the Son. Plain and simple.

Romans 10:9-13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation comes from confessing Christ as Lord and believing in your heart. So, again, no where does it lead us to believe that living a life can save you. Living the 10 Commandments can't save you. If it could, why would Jesus die for us? Read my Sig.

One way to Heaven, and doing, living, or thinking anything ain't part of it. Period.

(Swampy. Glad to see you back you sinning infidel. :)

[swampdragon]

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

At what point does Jesus say, if you follow the 10 Commandments, you'll be saved. NOBODY comes to the Father except through the Son. Plain and simple.

Romans 10:9-13



Salvation comes from confessing Christ as Lord and believing in your heart. So, again, no where does it lead us to believe that living a life can save you. Living the 10 Commandments can't save you. If it could, why would Jesus die for us? Read my Sig.

One way to Heaven, and doing, living, or thinking anything ain't part of it. Period.

(Swampy. Glad to see you back you sinning infidel. :)

So then again I ask....what about all the people who lived prior to Jesus yet still worshiped GOD?

Me?
Thanks.
Sinner?...probably.
Heathen?...Yep.
Pagan?...Yep.

My own personal opinion is that proving ANY God actually exists in the first place is dubious at best.
Providing evidence that "ONE" is the only true one and all others are false is impossible.

[Solidus-snake]

Oh my gosh this is so anti Bible it's not even funny. Do you realize that Jesus explicitly said this isn't true?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

At what point does Jesus say, if you follow the 10 Commandments, you'll be saved. NOBODY comes to the Father except through the Son. Plain and simple.

Romans 10:9-13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation comes from confessing Christ as Lord and believing in your heart. So, again, no where does it lead us to believe that living a life can save you. Living the 10 Commandments can't save you. If it could, why would Jesus die for us? Read my Sig.

One way to Heaven, and doing, living, or thinking anything ain't part of it. Period.

(Swampy. Glad to see you back you sinning infidel. :)

Then what Swamp said is right, over 2/3 of the world is condemned to hell. And do you find this as a shining example of Gods wondrous grace?

[old Grump]

Then what Swamp said is right, over 2/3 of the world is condemned to hell. And do you find this as a shining example of Gods wondrous grace?
But he isn't right, you cannot be condemned just because you haven't heard the word.

1 In the LORD put I my trust:
how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow,
they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations be destroyed,
what can the righteous do?
4 The LORD is in his holy temple,
the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous:
but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone,
and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness;
his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psalm 11

Applies to everybody not just Jews or Christians, being a Hindu or a Buddhist does not disqualify you from heaven. There is only one creator and there is only one standard of right and wrong. Politicians do not set that standard, it is universal. Treat others like you want them to treat you. There is a version of the Golden Rule in every major religion on earth, not just Christianity. Respect God, respect others, respect yourself.

[F-16 CHIEF]

Then what Swamp said is right, over 2/3 of the world is condemned to hell. And do you find this as a shining example of Gods wondrous grace?

I don't know how that works. What I can say, on the Bible's authority, is that you have to go through the Son to get to the Father.

But, the Bible doesn't say those who never heard of God or his Son are going to burn in Hell. So, that's a mystery.

To answer your second question, since the Bible says that to all that come to him, so will they be received means if you just worry about your own Salvation first, then yes, that's a shining example of how God has provided a way to Heaven for you. What else can he do for you?

[F-16 CHIEF]

Applies to everybody not just Jews or Christians, being a Hindu or a Buddhist does not disqualify you from heaven.

See, the thing is that Jesus changed a lot of things. Of course God loves rightousness. But, it's not the way to Heaven. Just like sacraficing animals isn't the way. That's the old Testament. Jesus changed that when he shed his blood for everyone. The days of smearing blood on a door or killing the fatted oxen is over. He provided a way out of that with his Son.

So yes, technically, being a Hindu, Jew, Buddist, or even a professed Christian doesn't keep you out of Heaven. Not accepting Christ as your Savior and asking him to forgive your sins is what keeps you out.

[old Grump]

I have a problem with fire and brimstone, my way or the highway religion. I cannot comprehend God so shallow, that is a man failing not our creators.

[ltorlo64]

Oh my gosh this is so anti Bible it's not even funny. Do you realize that Jesus explicitly said this isn't true?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

At what point does Jesus say, if you follow the 10 Commandments, you'll be saved. NOBODY comes to the Father except through the Son. Plain and simple.

I didn't say that keeping the 10 commandments would get you to heaven. In fact I said the opposite, that there is no way that we can do anything that will allow us to earn salvation. That does not take away from the call of God in both the Old and New Testament to obedience. It is just not how salvation comes to us.

I did point out that knowing the name of Jesus means something more than knowing the word "Jesus". Jesus' name is a description of His character. The angel told Joseph in Matthew 1:21 "to call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." The important thing in this is not the name Jesus, but what the name means. This is how someone who has never heard of Jesus can still know the name of Jesus, and still be saved by that name.


Romans 10:9-13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation comes from confessing Christ as Lord and believing in your heart. So, again, no where does it lead us to believe that living a life can save you. Living the 10 Commandments can't save you. If it could, why would Jesus die for us? Read my Sig.

One way to Heaven, and doing, living, or thinking anything ain't part of it. Period.

(Swampy. Glad to see you back you sinning infidel. :)

Romans10:9-13 shows again that to believe on the name of Jesus means something deeper than a word. One of Swampy's accussations that I agree with is that man has changed Jesus from who He really was into who we would like Him to be. We do this because instead of showing our belief in His name by showing His character, we say we believe in the word Jesus and live as we want thinking that because we sound religious we will be saved.

Don't forget Ephesians 2:8-9, "It is by grace we have been saved through faith, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Again, no argument can be made, we cannot be saved by anything we do. What we often forget is that this passage is followed by verse 10, "For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

[F-16 CHIEF]

What about Romans 10:9.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

How can you confess the name of Jesus unless you have heard his name?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Again, the Bible asks how can you believe on someone who you haven't heard of?

[ltorlo64]

What about Romans 10:9.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

How can you confess the name of Jesus unless you have heard his name?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Do not forget who this letter was written to. It was written to Jews who were living in Rome. They had heard of the things that Jesus did, and in some cases they even witnessed them, themselves. Those who had this experience would have to confess what they had seen and heard.

In chapter 10, Paul is telling the Jews that it is not their religion (the righteousness of the Jews) that brings them salvation (vs 1-4). It is a life that shows that Jesus is Lord that brings salvation. This salvation will be shown by the way they talk and the things they talk about. Look at Ephesians 5:1-20. In this section Paul shows how to proclaim that Jesus is Lord by using your mouth and never actually saying that Jesus is Lord.


Again, the Bible asks how can you believe on someone who you haven't heard of?

Paul starts out the letter in chapter 2 telling the Jews that there are people who will be saved because they are following God, even though they have never heard of God. They do this by following the commandments even though they have not heard of them and by trusting in a God they have not heard of. This is what is meant by the words that their consiences will defend them at the Judgement of Christ. Paul is exhorting the Jews to preach what they know to be true. This is necessary for two reasons, first so that those Gentiles who have never heard of Jesus but are already following can know who they are believing in and second so that those who are not following but are searching can be shown the Savior.

I can explain this by giving an example from personal experience. I knew my wife before I ever met her. How is this possible? I knew the character traits I wanted. Until I met her, though, there was always a chance that I would marry someone else who was not the person I already knew. My wife was the same way. When we met, it was like we had known each other forever even though we had just met. It was because she had the character traits I was looking for and I had the ones she was looking for, as well. Had I married one of the girls I went out with before I met my wife, I would not have met my wife, or if I had I would not have been able to marry her. This is an example of someone who knows God though they have not been introduced to God. They will recognize when He is introduced to them. How will they recognize Him? By the way the person doing the introduction talks (proclaiming Jesus is Lord in all their speach) and by how they act (they will act as Jesus did, not selfish and going about doing good.).

[swampdragon]

I have a problem with fire and brimstone, my way or the highway religion. I cannot comprehend God so shallow, that is a man failing not our creators.

I agree.

I find that God has given me nothing that I have not earned myself.
I see no need to worship something no more powerful than I.
And from a Biblical sense, if I can forgive men's trespasses more so than God who orders the slaughter of innocents....then I am better off being Godless.

[F-16 CHIEF]

I agree.

I find that God has given me nothing that I have not earned myself.

Salvation

[F-16 CHIEF]

ltorlo64, I won't drag this on, but I stand by what I posted. How can they believe if they haven't heard?

Living a life...... STOP NOW means works. Just because you live a certain way doesn't mean you are saved or not saved. Why? Because 2 things. Works cannot save you. We both agree. And because Christians are still human and still sinners.

So, if I have a bad day and cuss Swampy out, am I not saved? Of course I am. My sins are forgiven. Why? Because I've accepted Christ as my Saviour.

How can people who are living Christ like and haven't heard of him A. realize they're sinners and need salvation (Rom. 10:23) and B. repent of those sins. Who are they going to call on to forgive those sins and show their repentance?

I think what you're doing is not facing the fact that many people are not going to Heaven. This idea that all will get there on how they live is a fariy tale. Period.

It's all about the blood. If you don't realize that God required a perfect sacrafice and that it had to come from Jesus blood, then you can't be saved. You don't even realize what he did for you. Simply living a good life doesn't work.

Again I ask. Why would Jesus come here in human form, suffer a horrible death, and shed his blood if just knowing of him and living a good life was good enough to go to Heaven? That's right. He would have stayed in Heaven and spared himself the beating and humiliation.

[ltorlo64]

ltorlo64, I won't drag this on, but I stand by what I posted.

F-16, I agree with that. I am sure we will get more opportunities to discuss this. It was a good discussion though.