Black rifle dreams and nightmares. Save me from myself please.

[stinker]

Some will be familliar with my project/rant about my 5.56 norinco that i had starry eyed copper coated candy filled dreams of it becoming the "ar-47". I'm getting stonewalled at every turn so i've come to a conclusion with it.

F*** THE AK UPGRADING CONCEPT
I wanted a krebs rail for it. I've been practically begging on the phone to have one made that will fit a chicom.I'd buy the front rails to go with it so it all matches nice and pretty...and level.
It's a very small tweek on his end to make it work as far as i can tell,sooo....
Why do i have to resort to near begging to try to give somebody almost $700 for two parts?
But since i'm detecting absolutely no interest from his end...F*** HIM

Utg rails...junk that comes loose from what i've read...pass
Ultimak rails...Ok if you dont mind incinerating anything that you mount to it...pass
Midwest rails...likes to come loose from what i've read...pass

The entire ak aftermarket parts scene pretty much sucks and i've had it. I'm done with this crap.

So on to my next big mistake that'll cost me at least 5 times as much to complete. I'm thinking about an AR. Problem is i'm a total AR noob. Did'nt even know how to field strip one until a few days ago from watching youtube videos. Only ever shot one A1 style Olympic model P.O.S. that jammed the bolt every time you emptied a magazine.It was an actual jam not the hold open.You had to open the rifle mess with it internally and force it closed to shoot again...paperwieght suitability. I was not impressed.

Someone tell me if i'm being stupid or if this is actually worth the money i'd have to sink to do it. This will have to be piecemeal purchases one item at a time and i'll probably buy them in the order i list.

Rule number one, buy cheap buy twice.
I'll think i'll pass on any bargain basement bullshit.

Barrett rec 7 in 6.8.
Alexander arms 50 beowulf upper. Assuming it does work on the barret lower.Waiting on a confirmation email from either company on that.
Barrett rec 7 upper in 5.56.
Eotech's,lasers,flat blacked shiny thingys and copper coated candy for all.

At some point much further down the road,possibly in another life,one of the AR 50 bolt uppers simply because i'm unwilling to find a way to afford 10k for a single M82.

My thinking is i can save a few bucks by doing the "all in one package" with a high quality lower and whatever calliber i feel like shooting today i can just swap uppers.
Maybe buy another lower later just so i can have more than one gun assembled at a time.

Good plan? Bad plan? I could do it for half the cost and equal quality if i bought xxxxxx? I'm a moron and should stick to airsoft?

Save me from myself before i do it again....

[blobman]

curtis at akbuilder needs to expand his horizons,hes got the technology,i think things like a single point sling attachment for an ak is a no brainer

[romak10/63UF]

From my personal experiance the ak47 in 223 aka nornico is a damn good gun period i would keep it. Good luck on trying to get krebs.. to make you one.. If they do let us all know how it fits..

The ar-15...... hmmm i noticed after 3000 rounds even after perfect cleaning some times they tend to not feed. Unless you change over to the gas piston for the ar15...

The big bag barrett 82a1... you can get one for 7,999.99 not 10,000.oo any more.. i saw one on gunbroker.com awhile back....:prayer:

[blobman]

also ,dont go messin up that norinco with rails and shit

[FunkyPertwee]

There is no such thing as a perfect gun and looking for it will only drive you mad.

A Norinco .223 AK needs to stay stock. It BEGS to stay stock.

I think you should find a rifle that you like, that doesn't require you to add a bunch of crap to make you like it. ARs are not jamo-matics, and AKs shouldn't be turned into ARs.

How much have you shot your AK? Do you like it? Do you really need to sell it because you can't mount a scope or whatever? What do you like to shoot? Why do you need a rifle?

How much shooting have you done?

[stinker]

curtis at akbuilder needs to expand his horizons,hes got the technology,i think things like a single point sling attachment for an ak is a no brainer

I actually was able to work that problem out.
VLTOR Modstock Adapter (http://www.vltorstore.com/products/AK47-Modstock-Adapter.html)
Waiting to get home and stick it on the rifle. It just arrived a couple of hours ago.
According to the VLTOR guy i spoke to on the phone it does work on a chicom rear tang.
Slap a milspec magpul on that puppy and claim one small victory in this whole nightmare.

[stinker]

There is no such thing as a perfect gun and looking for it will only drive you mad.
And the winner of the understatement of the year award is.....


A Norinco .223 AK needs to stay stock. It BEGS to stay stock.
Actually this one is a busholed bwk92. It's a nice functioning rifle but it begs to be fixed to be honest.


How much have you shot your AK? Do you like it? Do you really need to sell it because you can't mount a scope or whatever? What do you like to shoot? Why do you need a rifle?

Aint selling it. I don't sell guns unles they're straight up defective or i'm REALLY desperate for cash and i've allready sold everything else including the kitchen sink.
I've shot it enough to know it's completely dependable, but i've allways had problems sighting it because of a crooked weaver mount that was allready on it when i bought it. Ripped that crap off of it as soon as i figured out exactly what was going on.

How much shooting have you done?
God only knows because i sure as hell could'nt count how many rounds i've burned in my lifetime. Fired my first rifle at about 3 years old. Several decades later.....

My whole point of this post is i'm looking at buying an m4/m16/ar15/whatever type platform and i really don't have the patience to screw it up due to my lack of knowledge and prior prejudices towards all things ar-15 and then pay to fix my new mistakes too.

I look at that barrett rec7 and i actually do see a thing of beauty but i lack prior experience with the ar15 so i'm wondering if it's really all the bang for the buck or could i do better.

[NewbieAKguy]

Barrett makes wonderful guns.....just don't be mad when you have to pay $2k + for a REC7 in either caliber. ARs aren't the POS's people say they are. Much improvement over the years in mil-spec QC. If you're set on a piston AR I'd suggest looking at S&W (which uses Adams Arms' kit, which is one of the best) or Stag, both good deals for their respective prices. You could even spend a touch more on Sig's 516 piston AR. If you're OK with the original DI gun, the sky is almost the limit nowadays.....S&W, Del-Ton, Double Star (site sponsor ;)), DPMS, Model 1 Sales, DSA, Spike's Tactical, CMMG, and on and on.

If you want to go piece by piece and build one, IIRC from other threads on that subject chances are you'll end up paying more, BUT you'll get what you want exactly. Another option is to get a lower of your choosing and just buy different uppers, both DI and piston, in many many calibers (that ammo still fits in AR mag, but with different follower)....204, .223/5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x9, 6.5 Grendel, .22lr, etc.

Some are sold out, but get a heads up when in stock:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1DSAZ4M4&name=DSA+Z4+M4+5.56%2f.223+Rifle&groupid=11
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1DSAMid&name=DSA+Z4+MidLength+5.56%2f.223+Rifle&groupid=11
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1724.php
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/750.php
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/753.php
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/751.php

These just scratch the surface. Heck, scour gunbroker and gunsamerica for deal(s). Well, that's my humble .02 anyways. Hope it helps some.

PS. Too bad AIM surplus still isn't a sponsor. I learned about them here and they're now one of my favorite ammo and AR parts sources.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

also ,dont go messin up that norinco with rails and shit

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/otto_rex/AK.jpg
:thumbsup:

[TEN-32]

I went the same route with my VEPR K in 5.56. Put the Ultimak on, vertical forward grip, etc. It is now restored to near stock condition and I prefer it. All it has now is a red dot on the side mount rail. I think we all go through this phase.

[El Laton Caliente]

I went the same route with my VEPR K in 5.56. Put the Ultimak on, vertical forward grip, etc. It is now restored to near stock condition and I prefer it. All it has now is a red dot on the side mount rail. I think we all go through this phase.

Vepr, Saiga, Valmet, Golani Galil, Norinco, Polytec, even a SAR3; add a red dot, maybe Kobra, or 1.5x to 4x and your good to go. All the lights and lasers do is tell the other guy where you are...

[ready]

I went the same route with my VEPR K in 5.56. Put the Ultimak on, vertical forward grip, etc. It is now restored to near stock condition and I prefer it. All it has now is a red dot on the side mount rail. I think we all go through this phase.

Yup, same here. I mount optics on a good ole side mount from Belarus now.

[Mark Ducati]

How about an AR in 5.45x39 flavor? I have found my upper to run spectacularly well...

And there's a new kid on the block....

Have you seen this?

How about an AR-15 in 30 caliber that utilizes a stock AR15 Bolt Carrier Assembly and retains a 30 round mag capacity? The only thing that changes is the barrel...

Advanced Armament: "ACC 300 Blackout", 7.62x35

http://www.advanced-armament.com/repository/product/300-barrel-ar-16inch-small.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivPz-Z0wAw

http://www.wheretobuyairsoft.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/28df4_300blk_556pic_2-tfb.jpg
http://www.wheretobuyairsoft.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/28df4_300_chart-tm-tfb.png

[stinker]

It's a very small tweek on his end to make it work as far as i can tell,sooo....
Why do i have to resort to near begging to try to give somebody almost $700 for two parts?
But since i'm detecting absolutely no interest from his end...F*** HIM
Well...Time to find out what crow tastes like.
Krebs called *me* about the rail thing. Turns out what he needs is a norinco in his hands so he can take measurments to make the pattern for the CNC.
Credit where credit is due.
So all i have to do is ship my rifle to him and i'll be able to get one made.
Don't suppose there's anyone near Wauconda, IL with a norinco that would mind loaning it to him for a few?...:laugh:

I think i'm going to just stick with the AR decision rather than risk something stupid happening with the shipping.
Murphys law is in full effect in my little world.
I can just see the truck hauling it crashing and burning down to the frames with my pea shooter in it.

[Schuetzenman]

If that's going to happen insure it for tripple it's real value and profit from the loss! :lmao3:

Back to reality, getting rid of the thumbhole stock is a noble effort. All the funky rails IMO is not. Should be restored to look like an AK is supposed to look and let be.

You want rails, lasers, strobe lights, swiss army kives hanging off of rails .... THAT's what the AR15 does. With regards to your choice of Barrett lowers ... seriously... you must want to pay 2x what a lower is worth. Meaning why are you going to pay that much for a name on a bit of metal. It won't work one lick better than a Stag, Rock River, Bushmaster, Spikes or even a Del-ton lower. You will however pay a lot more to get it.

http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/data/500/AAC_frontal_view.jpg
Here's my DIY high-speed-low-drag AR15. It is equipped with a piston system upper. Once I got the buffer spring and buffer weight correct for it function has been 100% with everything from 55 gr. M193 ball to 69 gr. Sierra MK HP rounds. Topped with an Eotech 512, (and not pictured a light on the right rail) I use a single point sling on it.

It has a Stag Lower, the upper was from Del-ton with a 1 in 9 chrome lined barrel. Mid length gas system because I want to be able to use a bayonet. I figure if Dems like to ban it, then I want it, (bayonet lugs). The basic rifle before addtion of the Daniel Defense Omega rail handguards and piston conversion was under 8 bills. The buttstock is the ACE Socom, long. Wish I'd gotten the short version. I almost never telescope the stock to a longer setting unless I go prone. I may move this to my scoped match gun eventually and get the short Socom model to replace it with. These stocks don't rattle, lock up tight and are all aluminum.

[stinker]

You want rails, lasers, strobe lights, swiss army kives hanging off of rails ....
Actually i was thinking about an ez-bake turkey pot pie maker mounted on the top rail that runs off of the piston exhaust ports during rapid fire :eyebrows:


It won't work one lick better than a Stag, Rock River, Bushmaster, Spikes or even a Del-ton lower
I've been asking myself that exact question. WTF is the real difference between the different manufacturers lowers besides being able to snob your nose up and say yours is "cooler" than the other keyboard commandos lower. As far as i can tell, and i'm assuming you'll agree, they pretty much all amount to nothing more than a place to stick the fcg.

I do however actually like the barrett uppers which is about 80% of the guns price. That piston system shown in the assembly/disassembly vid from them just looks extremely well made.

I'm still learning the finer nuances about the ar platform before i go blowing money on stuff though. Pretty much sure i could strip/reassemble one down to the last part on the first try though at this point (god bless youtube gun porn)

[Schuetzenman]

Yes I agree most lowers are only about names on metal and a place for the FCG. Piston systems. If they were selling to the public when I was building my rifle pictured here and if they would offer it in mid length gas system I'd of had one of these. http://www.brownells.com/1/3/osprey-gas-piston The Osprey Defense piston conversion system. http://www.gaspiston.com/ Oh lookey here ... they do make it in midlenght now. https://www.gaspiston.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=243

They seem to have come down off their "high horse" with the sale of their product to us mere mortals. Orignally they also said "sales to Law Enforcement and Military only". That was about 3 years ago. I guess reality set in and they found out that there's more civilian weapon owners than the vaunted "professionals". Frankly I'd written them off but a buddy of mine that has an SOT license and builds full autos and does service on FA weapons in NC endorsed the Osprey to me. He's tried them all and he says the Osprey is the best one overall; reliable, simple and lowest cost. I asked him if they wore out, his reply was nope. He has one M16 he's built that has 20K in rounds through it and no signs of wear. That says alot as full auto fire is much more harsh on things than semi fire.

[Bluedog]

I have a Norinco 84s that I have not shot in years, though is has the best trigger of any AK I have ever tried, and is the most accurate. It's not AR accurate. It is bone stock, except that it wears a barrel nut instead of a flash hider.

When it comes to putting rails on an AK, the question you have to ask yourself is, what am I going to put on these rails?

The only thing the 84s needs to make it run with modern rifles is a decent optic and a light. You don't need rails for either of those, and non-gunsmithng options are available. You can use para chord to attach your sling where it needs to be.

If you want a "Modern AK, ad some black plastic furniture, or cammo to make it even more modern, a TWS dogleg scope rail with the optic of your choice, and clamp a surefire G2 to the gas tube.

Below is a KISS AR that is kept light and Retro. No rails required. The set up you see is 100% mil-spec --or was a few years ago. Also consider the 74 shown. It has a mil-spec Russian Red dot mounted to a side rail and a Sure-fire G2L clamped to the gas tube in perfect proximity to my weak hand thumb. (The AK is a left handed weapon --us lefties know that) It will do anything that the AR will do, except that it is heavy, clumsy, has a shitty safety, and while more accurate than a 7.62 AK, it is still not as accurate as an AR. I keep it as a serious use gun because I have lots and lots of ammo for it.

http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/data/500/medium/DSCF1953.jpg

On the point of AR lowers, I have many, and they are pretty much the same. However, P-Mags will not drop free from my stag, though they will from every other lower I have.

If I ever needed to use the 84s for serious work, I would add a light just like the one on the 74, and a TWS rail and probably an Aimpoint micro-type sight, or skip the rail and use a LaRue Iron dot. I would not use the Trijicon or an Eotech, Even though I have them on ARs, because I could not use the stock Iron sights as BUIS.