questions on the 5.45/5.56 VS 7.62x39& other larger bullets

[Sergi762]

OK I will admit I am a newer shooter. I haven't had the privilege of send thousands downrange( stagnant job market and a lousy economy really don't help entry level prospects)but I have shot many times and enjoyed every moment. what is driving me batty is the , some would say, age old argument: ak or AR? here I am asking about the ballistic and performance of smaller rounds like the 5.45/5.56 versus the older, larger rounds like 7.62x39 or other 30 caliber sized bullets. assuming the shooter s relatively new and underfunded what would be better? the high velocity 5.45/5.56 type of bullet or the slower heavier 30 caliber variants? granted I may be over simplifying the matter but I want to know what is best.

on a side note; AK/AR arguments aside what are the merits of the smaller faster rounds vs the larger heavier rounds?

[FunkyPertwee]

The smaller faster rounds are more precise. In order to get the maximum effect out of 5.56, you will need to use some marksmenship or have full auto. 7.62x39 is no .308, but it still packs a good punch. The advantage is that if your an untrained soldier, you can shoot someone in a non-vital part of their body and still knock them down. Generally, poor untrained shooters go with an AK because ammo is cheaper and you don't have be as precise in order to be effective.

In other words, its easier to shoot a deer in the head with an AR, but with an AK you'll be fine with center mass anyway.

[imanaknut]

As much as you are going to hate reading this, I usually tell people that since there is such a big difference between the AR and AK, get one of each. That way you will be able to enjoy precision vs. simplicity and form vs. function.

[old Grump]

Hunting, plinking, self defense or target shooting? Answer in large part depends on what the primary purpose of your gun is. There will still be hard core argument's from the hardcore 'my caliber' only diehards but more consensus from us generalist will shoot anything types.

Depending on your answer to that question our answer might be none of the above or a little bit of all of them.

[O.S.O.K.]

I am going to assume that you are asking in order to determine how to spend your limited $$ to get a SHTF rig and ammo.

The 5.45x39 is the best deal going right now at $140 or less per 1080 round spam can. It will do the following quite well:

1) anti personnel - shoot an assailant anywhere with this round and it will stop them from advancing. Shoot them center of mass and they are likely to expire.
2) hunting - will down medium game and even large game easily (ETA - not taking hunting regs into consideration)

The round isn't as good as 7.62x39 or larger - at defeating hard targets like cars, going through barriers, etc.

It is better for carrying - you can carry more rounds for the weight.

There are very good AK-74 carbines available for good prices - Atlantic has a Romanian with chrome-lined chamber and barrel for $439.

You can buy twice as much 5.45x39 as 5.56x45 for the same money.

7.62x39 is a good option though - it costs $180 or so for 1000 rounds and the carbines are also very reasonable.

You can't really go wrong with either of the rusky rounds IMHO.

5.56x45 is more expensive and great in the AR but simply runs a lot more $$ to get.

[Mark Ducati]

Marksmanship?


I've heard that for 5.56x45 (.223) vs. a 7.62x39... that the standards of accuracy are great.... 5.56 they expect 3-4" groups at 100 yards or greater. 7.62x39, the target area is broadened to 9".... basically, hit the heart with a 5.56x45 vs. hitting a pie plate with 7.62x39.

[Mark Ducati]

BTW, 5.45x39.... I boought a couple cases because of the cost being so low... Got a complete bolt off gunbroker made by S&W (I understand that S&W made a limited run of these).... the ammo functions fine and groups nicely, but keep in mind that all this suruplus 5.45x39 is corrosive... you'll have to do due dilligence in cleaning each range session.

[romak10/63UF]

the 7.62x39mm ak-47 is what i will go with anyday ..... I have fired ar-15's an to be honest there really nice , but when i want stop dead right there fire power i choose the 7.62x39.... an when there father away then 300 yards i break out the k98 8mm mauser.

[Bluedog]

Not one military in the world that matters uses the 7.62X39. The Russians have had the 5.45 for longer than they had the M43 as their primary round. A less experienced marksman will hit better with a flat shooting high velocity round due to lower recoil and flatter trajectory. The 5.56 and 5.54 have Superior wound ballistics to the M43. That's not even debatable. The M43 is comparable to a 38 special.

According to the US Army Special Forces, troops armed with M43 chambered rifles cannot be expected to reliably hit a man at 100 meters, and troops so armed rarely engage with aimed fire beyond or even at that distance.

[Sergi762]

I am going to assume that you are asking in order to determine how to spend your limited $$ to get a SHTF rig and ammo.

The 5.45x39 is the best deal going right now at $140 or less per 1080 round spam can. It will do the following quite well:

1) anti personnel - shoot an assailant anywhere with this round and it will stop them from advancing. Shoot them center of mass and they are likely to expire.
2) hunting - will down medium game and even large game easily (ETA - not taking hunting regs into consideration)

The round isn't as good as 7.62x39 or larger - at defeating hard targets like cars, going through barriers, etc.

It is better for carrying - you can carry more rounds for the weight.

There are very good AK-74 carbines available for good prices - Atlantic has a Romanian with chrome-lined chamber and barrel for $439.

You can buy twice as much 5.45x39 as 5.56x45 for the same money.

7.62x39 is a good option though - it costs $180 or so for 1000 rounds and the carbines are also very reasonable.

You can't really go wrong with either of the rusky rounds IMHO.

5.56x45 is more expensive and great in the AR but simply runs a lot more $$ to get.
well see the thing is I already own a FN FAL.( well L1A1 but still) a my question was asked as I myself feel the 5.56/.223 round isn't the best for all round damage but is decent at penetration. I know many here are die hard fans of the AR-15/M-16 platform. I don't have much faith in the Ar systems reliability. sure modern guns are waaayy better than Vietnam era weapons but the AK's I have had the pleasure of shooting have never failed to fire. throw what surplus you can in it , it will shoot. I had thought that the 5.45 round would penetrate well and still deliver appreciable hydrostatic shock but I am doubting that notion the more I research.

[old Grump]

Bigger is better when it comes to shooting the boogerman but you still didn't say what your primary purpose is. You have the FN FAL and you aren't going to get much better than that. If you have the room I would start buying and reading every reloading manual I can get my hands on and then starting small get into reloading. Match what you already have to what you want to do with it. Read the manuals first. To many people jump into it backwards (raising my hand) and buy gear before they read the book. There are better ways of doing it.

[Sergi762]

Bigger is better when it comes to shooting the boogerman but you still didn't say what your primary purpose is. You have the FN FAL and you aren't going to get much better than that. If you have the room I would start buying and reading every reloading manual I can get my hands on and then starting small get into reloading. Match what you already have to what you want to do with it. Read the manuals first. To many people jump into it backwards (raising my hand) and buy gear before they read the book. There are better ways of doing it.deep gut honesty? selfdefense, hunting and as stupid as this is a bugout weapon. granted no way I can really hide the crack of a 308 but I have never heard of a 308 not penetrating a dear's side.as far as reloading goes I have a die set for 308, a Lee reloading press and a few bits here and there( christmas gift from Vati).Need to find a good reloading manual for the noob.

[old Grump]

The reason I said manuals in the plural instead of the singular. Manuals from powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers and reloading equipment manufacturers like Hodgdon, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Sierra, RCBS and Lee off the top of my head sit on my shelf. My go to book is the Sierra because of the loose leaf format which makes it easier to find what I want and to work from but there are none that I don't use. Each is a little different and each tells me things that the others didn't cover. For that reason I never recommend 'a' book but a variety.

[Sergi762]

Purposes aside what did the Russians have in mind when the 5.45 round was designed?As far as I know the round was supposed to be the answer to the US 5.56 caliber round.but if that was the goal the 7.62x39 is certainly effective...:conf44: as I stated earlier know some things but not all. I do wish there were drum mags for the 5.45 available in the US, however....

[romak10/63UF]

Ive never seen a drum mag in america, but there are people in russia who could get you the drum mag for a heavy price... i do know there is a 45 round bakelight magazine for the 5.45x39 ak47....

[FunkyPertwee]

http://www.copesdistributing.net/images/ak74drum.jpg
http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?cPath=195_194&products_id=3181

[old Grump]

Blame their excursion into Afghanistan. They liked the 5.56 and their issue 7,62x39 rounds were bulky and short range. They designed the round to have the same velocity at half the recoil impulse so they could carry more and shoot more accurately. Their target foe were smallish men on the skinny side so a butt heavy bullet with an air pocket up front would destabilize on impact making COM hits pretty much a fatal shot. A man used to shooting a 30 caliber with mediocre results suddenly had a 22 he was shooting like an expert and he could carry triple or quadruple the ammo. It' didn't help the range problem but it made close up and personal nastier.

[O.S.O.K.]

You have the FAL. I assume that you like it. They are good MBR's. The round is considered the best for the application.

The thing that is bothering you is the cost of the ammo.

I understand.

So I suggest that you purchase a basic reloading set-up and load your ammo. You can get a basic Lee kit and set of dies.

That will take the cost of the ammo down to a managable level.

Other than that, sell the FAL and get the 74 or 47 and buy the ammo for those...

[old Grump]

Better yet keep the FAL for serious and get a good 22LR and 20,000 rounds of ammo. That reminds me I need another 7,000 rounds to get back up to minimum.

[Sergi762]

well this is a noteworthy revelation: from what I have found so far If the goal of shooting to is wound the 5,45 seems to be great for that..I wish I could find some concrete proof of the rounds tumbling abilities but so far I keep getting a load of bilge from the M-16 fanatics...Some say it tumbles and wounds fantastically others claim the 5.56 round does a better job.this argument only sours my taste against the 5.56 . Lord, if it's true the milsurp 5.45's still have that hollow cavity I can believe it will be a vicious round. penetration might not be great but hmmm.....comments?

[AKTexas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlyEYmvP_tc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmu7yTVidig&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Z_p9OAjsE&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBqjAyhs56M&feature=related

[romak10/63UF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zZ-9z7MsgI 5.45x39 vs brick test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t35UhDx6K9M 7.62x39 vs huge brick ! WOW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OizUYAjPTdA&feature=related 5.56 notice how many rounds it takes to destroy the hole brick....

[romak10/63UF]

P.s. forgot to tell you there are two different rounds FMJ an HP.... but if you can find some steel core ammo witch ak-47s are made to shoot then that ammo is the best for these types of tests....

5.45 i think is 7n6 ammo is steel core
7.62x39 there is chinese steel core russian etc... i personally have shot threw 1/2 steel plate with this ammo...

5.56 ss109 ammo is hot over 3,000 fps , you can look it up on youtube...

[Sergi762]

Holy...That is nasty..I mean good Lord that is sick. I'll say this much Mother Russia is NOT the nation to piss off.

[O.S.O.K.]

Great vids! I don't want to get hit with any of them...

But I think it vindicates the notion that any will do the job and that the inexpensive 5.45 is a very good option for limited funds...

[FunkyPertwee]

Damn. I was unimpressed the 7.62 didn't fragment. I've heard the Yugo ammo is a lot better for achieving proper fragmentation.

[bovver]

All are good rounds and have good points and weak points.
It comes down to what you need or is important to you.
All out accuracy.
Full on penitraition.

Where Im at in the end of the world everyone is shooting everyone I went with the 7.62x39 because I live in the south and know that around here I will not be shooting much pass 200-300 yards.
Lots of trees etc here.

Now I did get a rifle in 5.45x39 but plan on moving back out to the south west.
I am familiar with the area and felt that this round will be my main in that area because I will need to take longer shots.
Also have a PSL but I think for a "sniper"you might want something else,will work good as a DM if you have others that will help combat the reptilians with you.

So just brake down what you need and there is your answer.

[Schuetzenman]

Nice videos, they need bigger blocks of gelatin. Here are the FACTS about all projectiles.

1. They will all flip end for end given enough speed and enough penetration distance in the target. If the bullets jacket is thin enough and if the bullet speed is great enough, as the bullet turns shearing forces cause the jacket to rupture and the core of lead core bullets will fragment in a sort of mini shot gun blast effect.

2. If the round is inherently more accurate, one has an easier time to score a hit.

3. Nothing dies unless it gets a solid hit.

4. Knock down is a myth. No bullet can knock somebody down. If it could the shooter would likewise get knocked on his or her ass when they fired the weapon. (See your high school physics book for laws of physics, math).

5. Bullets kill because they tear up flesh, veins, arteries, puncture vital organs or hit the central nervous system. (A.K.A. spinal cord or the brain). There is a temporary wound channel and a permanent would channel. The temporary is often much more massive in size, but due to the elastic nature of flesh the would channel becomes small and the end result is the permanent wound channel. There is a shock wave effect that travels through the flesh and this can have effects ranging from; nothing, to a K.O. of the target. Men are over 65% water for an average man and 55% for an average woman.

7.62x39 is nearly 2x the weight of 5.45 or 5.56 ammos so per pound you can carry twice as many rounds. Recoil is milder as the bullet weights are half that of 7.62x39, therefore recoil impulse is less so it is easier to maintain sights on target. The 5.45x39 rounds have a top speed around 2950 fps. 5.56 with a 55 gr. hits 3300 fps and with a 62 gr. bullet is doing about 3200 fps.

Some trivia on this subject. The Swiss, being well .... Swiss worry about killing an enemy too aggressively. Yeah, I know that's really a strange thing to worry about. Anyway, the Swiss use their version of the 5.56 NATO round, but they make it with a very thick nickel plated steel jacket. The jacket is made thick enough that in no circumstance can the bullet fragment inside the enemies body when the bullet flips.

[arcangel]

I live in Michigan and it ranges from 40-50+ acre plots in the country or straight up urban. Where Im located is kinda both, but mostly urban. I went with 308, and 556 for my rifle cals. 556 for general purpase and 308 if I need anything more. I also have my rifles set up with glass and favor the DM role. I chose these rounds because they are both proven in combat. And are available in several loadings locally, easier to reload than the rusky steel cased ammo. Both have limits but cover a wide spectrum as well. A major down fall of these rounds however are the cost, re-loading is a must. Your decision depends mainly on your primary purpose and intended usage, and location, and availability of ammo, parts, components. Keep the Fal, just set up to re-load that will help, and for the cost, 5.45 is pretty tempting.