Proving that nobody can get into heaven

[swampdragon]

Comments?

I always hear about accepting Jesus as your savior, and you are good to go.

Then there is always the debate over works vs works not needed.

But what about all this other stuff that everybody ignores?

Is it ignored because a lot of people honestly just don't know about it?

Or...is it ignored because it's convenient to do so?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao

[AKTexas]

Hurry Christians,grab your stones and beat the unbeliever!
:rotflmbao:

Give em hell swampy!

[infidel.forever]

AND WHATS SO HARD ABOUT TRUSTING AND BELEIVING ? JUST LIKE A CHILD?

if your knowledge of the bible was better you'd realise this talks about the wide eyed innocent beleif that children have

they KNOW what they beleive in

maybe its Santa Claus, maybe that their father will get them that toy they want

ever watched a child wake up ? they SMILE!!!! they know its going to be a good day ( never seen a adult wake with a beaming smile unless its the next day)

i have that same trust in my mates, the ones i served with ,

people may think i'm stupid , they may think i'm simple

maybe they are right

i have a simple faith that My Lord cares and keeps his promises

childish eh ?

cool

may The Good Lord give you the eyes and faith of a child
so you too may be welcomed into a life never ending of happiness

May He also grant you a steady nerve and aim if you so need it before then

[swampdragon]

Hurry Christians,grab your stones and beat the unbeliever!
:rotflmbao:

Give em hell swampy!

Just askin' questions.
Nothin' to see here.
Don't shoot the messenger.
I didn't make the video.
I was framed man!

lol....

[swampdragon]

AND WHATS SO HARD ABOUT TRUSTING AND BELEIVING ? JUST LIKE A CHILD?

if your knowledge of the bible was better you'd realise this talks about the wide eyed innocent beleif that children have

they KNOW what they beleive in

maybe its Santa Claus, maybe that their father will get them that toy they want

ever watched a child wake up ? they SMILE!!!! they know its going to be a good day ( never seen a adult wake with a beaming smile unless its the next day)

i have that same trust in my mates, the ones i served with ,

people may think i'm stupid , they may think i'm simple

maybe they are right

i have a simple faith that My Lord cares and keeps his promises

childish eh ?

cool

may The Good Lord give you the eyes and faith of a child
so you too may be welcomed into a life never ending of happiness

May He also grant you a steady nerve and aim if you so need it before then

Who are you talking to?
Are you addressing "me," or are you replying to the video guy?

[infidel.forever]

who posted it ?

[swampdragon]

who posted it ?

I did.
But I didn't make the video and am not responsible for it's contents.

Are you asking me a question or yelling at the video?
That's my first question.
We can discuss anything you like.

Or is it that the video challenged your beliefs and you just temporarily flew off the handle?
I'm just trying to figure out where we are right now.

[infidel.forever]

I did.
But I didn't make the video and am not responsible for it's contents.


i was told something similar by someone once

i did not make the bomb ( IED ) I did not build it
i just put it there.....

yeah right.. ok your 100% innocent like the other dude..

and nope i aint watched it

why? i'm a kid in some ways

i KNOW whats what

i dont need some ney sayer with a grudge to tell me more BS

i get enough from the governments

[infidel.forever]

i'm new here and dont wish to upset folks , but why attack a persons belief in God ?

maybe its a joke i missed the first part of

but how about attacking those who attack you , instead of those who defend you and your way of life

ISLAM would be a great place to start..

[ltorlo64]

Comments?

I always hear about accepting Jesus as your savior, and you are good to go.

Then there is always the debate over works vs works not needed.

But what about all this other stuff that everybody ignores?

Is it ignored because a lot of people honestly just don't know about it?

Or...is it ignored because it's convenient to do so?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao

I knew you could not resist posting this.

[printerman]

Every step of this video can "Simply" be explained ....

1. it's true , the road is difficult and narrow , God see's all , so at least make an effort

2. Jesus said about a rich man "nothing is impossible with God"

3. Love God more than any other and he'll show us "how to love others"

4.The Sacraments "are" his flesh and blood and will open our eyes

5. Like a child in humility

6. Making a commitment

7. Jews made up their own 613 laws , God gave Moses 10 and only ten

8. Have confidence and faith

....to some who doubt , these videos sound great and makes a person feel like they don't have to know GOD . If any one needs more extensive details , I would be happy to do my best to battle ignorance and give a hand ...

[308]

i'm new here and dont wish to upset folks , but why attack a persons belief in God ?

maybe its a joke i missed the first part of

but how about attacking those who attack you , instead of those who defend you and your way of life

ISLAM would be a great place to start..

Don't worry about upsetting folks around here.
This thread is what Swampy does.

God is working on him...he just doesn't get it yet.
lolz

[Krupski]

i'm new here and dont wish to upset folks , but why attack a persons belief in God ?

maybe its a joke i missed the first part of

but how about attacking those who attack you , instead of those who defend you and your way of life

ISLAM would be a great place to start..

There is a BIG difference between "attacking" a person's belief in GOD (or a God) and attacking belief in Jesus Christ.

Most everyone believes in a God (or assumes there must be one), but Jesus Christ is only relevant to a small subset of those people.

Anything that I believe is due to me reasoning out that it simply must be true. "Faith" has absolutely no part in it.

Nature, reproduction, DNA, stars, the universe, etc... all force me to believe that there has to be a God that created it all.

Now, the idea of Jesus Christ and the need to "accept" Him as a "savior" makes little sense to me. If anything the idea of Jesus Christ is a story written in the strongest possible manner to demonstrate the concept of love.

If you are a parent, what would you think would be THE MOST DIFFICULT thing for you to do? Yeah... sacrifice one of your children... or worse your ONLY child.

So, to say "God sent His only Son to save you" is merely a story to say "God loves you more than you can imagine".

Now personally I don't think God gives two shits about me or any other life form on this planet... and He probably doesn't care much about all the life on all the other planets either.

I mean... we are bacteria compared to God. If you take a bleach wipe and clean off your table, killing millions of germs, do you care? Do you even realize that those germs prayed to YOU as a "god"? Nope... better that they're gone.

True religious fanatics of any kind I believe have to have a weak mind in order to base their lives on faith that something told in a story is the end-all truth.

[Krupski]

http://www.gunsnet.net/customavatars/avatar4_2.gif


308 your avatar is scary.

[Moebrown20]

If you are a parent, what would you think would be THE MOST DIFFICULT thing for you to do? Yeah... sacrifice one of your children... or worse your ONLY child.

So, to say "God sent His only Son to save you" is merely a story to say "God loves you more than you can imagine".

How could Jesus be his only son if he made me?
There's something wrong with that.
He created Adam, doesn't that make him his son?
What about the other children in the bible. Didn't he make them too?

Jesus was a prophet. A child, not the only.

[swampdragon]

i was told something similar by someone once

i did not make the bomb ( IED ) I did not build it
i just put it there.....

yeah right.. ok your 100% innocent like the other dude..

and nope i aint watched it

why? i'm a kid in some ways

i KNOW whats what

i dont need some ney sayer with a grudge to tell me more BS

i get enough from the governments

So in a forum called "Religous Issues," you feel everything posted should be Pro-Religious only and everything is fine....as long as it doesn't go against your personal beliefs?
That doesn't make for much of a "discussion" forum does it?

How is pointing out scripture considered an attack when it comes from the very same book you find Holy?
That makes no sense at all.
It's either ALL Holy...or it ALL isn't.

And at one point you state: "if your knowledge of the bible was better you'd realise this talks about the wide eyed innocent beleif that children have"

Then in the next breath you state: "and nope i aint watched it"


But since you just said you didn't watch the video even, then how can anyone even take your response seriously one way or the other if you don't know what you are even arguing about?
You can't even be honest about whether you even watched the thing or not.
If you only looked at the front of the video, perhaps you should watch the thing first before making silly comments.

I "do" agree with you when you said this however: "i'm a kid in some ways"
Yes. Yes you are.

[AKTexas]

So in a forum called "Religous Issues," you feel everything posted should be Pro-Religious only and everything is fine....as long as it doesn't go against your personal beliefs?
That doesn't make for much of a "discussion" forum does it?

How is pointing out scripture considered an attack when it comes from the very same book you find Holy?
That makes no sense at all.
It's either ALL Holy...or it ALL isn't.

And at one point you state: "if your knowledge of the bible was better you'd realise this talks about the wide eyed innocent beleif that children have"

Then in the next breath you state: "and nope i aint watched it"


But since you just said you didn't watch the video even, then how can anyone even take your response seriously one way or the other if you don't know what you are even arguing about?
You can't even be honest about whether you even watched the thing or not.
I have no use for liars.

I "do" agree with you when you said this however: "i'm a kid in some ways"
Yes. Yes you are.

Damn swampy lube it before you shove it in.The guy may be new to this...

[swampdragon]

Don't worry about upsetting folks around here.
This thread is what Swampy does.

God is working on him...he just doesn't get it yet.
lolz

F-16 CHIEF wanted to talk about this stuff. I didn't bring it up first...lol.

If everybody always agreed with each other, no alternate points of view were ever welcomed, nothing "different" was ever discussed....we would just stagnate as a species and cease to evolve.
I'm just contributing to the well-being of society.
:naughty:

I'm in fairly good company however, so I'm not really worried about it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNMZlcyIj-8&feature=related

[swampdragon]

Every step of this video can "Simply" be explained ....

1. it's true , the road is difficult and narrow , God see's all , so at least make an effort

2. Jesus said about a rich man "nothing is impossible with God"

3. Love God more than any other and he'll show us "how to love others"

4.The Sacraments "are" his flesh and blood and will open our eyes

5. Like a child in humility

6. Making a commitment

7. Jews made up their own 613 laws , God gave Moses 10 and only ten

8. Have confidence and faith

....to some who doubt , these videos sound great and makes a person feel like they don't have to know GOD . If any one needs more extensive details , I would be happy to do my best to battle ignorance and give a hand ...

That entire post actually just said nothing at all.
Congratulations.
That was quite a feat!

[swampdragon]

Damn swampy lube it before you shove it in.The guy may be new to this...

What do you mean?
I didn't curse.
I didn't call him names.
I didn't type in CAPITAL LETTERS like I was yelling at him or anything either.
I just responded to his rant.
Am I supposed to apologize because he didn't agree with me?
lol....
:munch:

:biggrina:

[F-16 CHIEF]

I've seen that video before and it's one of the most absurd things I've ever seen.

The main reason is because the creator of this video fails to mention that Jesus used parabled and metaphors the entire time of his ministry.

Does anyone here really struggle with the idea of context? When he was speaking to the man who half heartedly wanted to follow him, he tested him. The man wasn't willing to trust Jesus. He liked the idea, but when Jesus told him to "sell everything", he couldn't. He was speaking to that man. Not everyone on the planet.

Little children. It's a metaphor. All of us who have little children know that they have complete faith and trust in us. They see us as their protector and provider. That's the metaphor.

He compared the manna from the old testament when he said who eats of his flesh. It's again, a metaphor. He never meant to literally do it.

You have to know what he was referring to and include all of the entire part of that chapter.

This video conveniently leaves out the beginning and end of these passages and the parts leading up. They drop you right in the middle of a metaphor to make things look bizarre. Anyone who has ever spent 5 minutes in a Bible will laugh at the weak attempt here.

Apparently, Jesus testing folks and exposing half hearted attempts in belief in him, somehow negates the other hundreds of scripture.

[infidel.forever]

your upset i got the cap lock stuck ?

so its ok to take the piss outta someones faith but you cant have a typo ??

what prissy miss BS is that ?

you gay or what?? is it time to sell out your nation because someone upset you ??

thats why you had to play that way ??

because i had a typo??

is this a joke cause i find that disturbing and seriously

my rant??

who posted this and started the thread with it ??



sorry i'm outta here

no wonder your web site is written up as it is

[swampdragon]

There is a BIG difference between "attacking" a person's belief in GOD (or a God) and attacking belief in Jesus Christ.

Most everyone believes in a God (or assumes there must be one), but Jesus Christ is only relevant to a small subset of those people.

Anything that I believe is due to me reasoning out that it simply must be true. "Faith" has absolutely no part in it.

Nature, reproduction, DNA, stars, the universe, etc... all force me to believe that there has to be a God that created it all.

Now, the idea of Jesus Christ and the need to "accept" Him as a "savior" makes little sense to me. If anything the idea of Jesus Christ is a story written in the strongest possible manner to demonstrate the concept of love.

If you are a parent, what would you think would be THE MOST DIFFICULT thing for you to do? Yeah... sacrifice one of your children... or worse your ONLY child.

So, to say "God sent His only Son to save you" is merely a story to say "God loves you more than you can imagine".

Now personally I don't think God gives two shits about me or any other life form on this planet... and He probably doesn't care much about all the life on all the other planets either.

I mean... we are bacteria compared to God. If you take a bleach wipe and clean off your table, killing millions of germs, do you care? Do you even realize that those germs prayed to YOU as a "god"? Nope... better that they're gone.

True religious fanatics of any kind I believe have to have a weak mind in order to base their lives on faith that something told in a story is the end-all truth.

I agree with a lot of that.
The possibility of a "Creator" out there someplace "is" possible.
But considering the vastness of the entire universe as we know it....and what little we actually do know...I'm pretty sure all the religions on earth are wrong.

[Moebrown20]

no wonder your web site is written up as it is

Really?
Where, link please.

[swampdragon]

your upset i got the cap lock stuck ?

so its ok to take the piss outta someones faith but you cant have a typo ??

what prissy miss BS is that ?

you gay or what?? is it time to sell out your nation because someone upset you ??

thats why you had to play that way ??

because i had a typo??

is this a joke cause i find that disturbing and seriously

my rant??

who posted this and started the thread with it ??



sorry i'm outta here

no wonder your web site is written up as it is

Bye.

I'm not the one flying off the handle. You are. And you "still" are.
I'm not upset about anything.
But apparently, you can't take it already!

:bigsmilebounce:

[swampdragon]

I've seen that video before and it's one of the most absurd things I've ever seen.

The main reason is because the creator of this video fails to mention that Jesus used parabled and metaphors the entire time of his ministry.

Does anyone here really struggle with the idea of context? When he was speaking to the man who half heartedly wanted to follow him, he tested him. The man wasn't willing to trust Jesus. He liked the idea, but when Jesus told him to "sell everything", he couldn't. He was speaking to that man. Not everyone on the planet.

Little children. It's a metaphor. All of us who have little children know that they have complete faith and trust in us. They see us as their protector and provider. That's the metaphor.

He compared the manna from the old testament when he said who eats of his flesh. It's again, a metaphor. He never meant to literally do it.

You have to know what he was referring to and include all of the entire part of that chapter.

This video conveniently leaves out the beginning and end of these passages and the parts leading up. They drop you right in the middle of a metaphor to make things look bizarre. Anyone who has ever spent 5 minutes in a Bible will laugh at the weak attempt here.

Apparently, Jesus testing folks and exposing half hearted attempts in belief in him, somehow negates the other hundreds of scripture.

The context and metaphor argument is as old as the Bible itself.
But here is why that argument doesn't hold water CHIEF.
The "whole" Bible is a giant story not meant to be taken literally anyways.

The writers of the Bible used symbolism all over the place.
So you can't say that everything in the video didn't mean what it said....but then turn around and say that all you have to do to be saved is accept Jesus as your Savior because the Bible says so.
You can't pick and choose which verses to call a metaphor and which ones to call literal to suit your needs.
It doesn't work that way.

The Bible contradicts itself all over the place.
Just the "short" list looks likes this, and it gets worse from there:

Contradictions

* God good to all, or just a few?
* War or Peace?
* Who is the father of Joseph?
* Who was at the Empty Tomb?
* Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
* Which first, beasts or man?
* The number of beasts in the ark
* How many stalls and horsemen?
* Is it folly to be wise or not?
* Human vs. ghostly impregnation
* The sins of the father
* The bat is not a bird
* Rabbits do not chew their cud
* Snails do not melt
* Fowl from waters or ground
* Odd genetic engineering
* The shape of the earth
* Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
* Earth supported?
* Heaven supported too
* The hydrological cycle
* Order of creation
* Moses' personality
* Righteous live?
* Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
* Jesus' last words
* Years of famine
* Moved David to anger?
* The genealogy of Jesus?
* God be seen?
* Cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious or kind, merciful, and good
* Tempts?
* Judas died how?
* Ascend to heaven
* What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
* How many time did the cock crow?
* How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
* Does every man sin?
* Who bought potter's field?
* Who prophesied the potter's field?
* Who bears guilt?
* Do you answer a fool?
* How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
* How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
* Marriage?
* Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
* Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
* How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?
* Judging
* Good deeds
* For or against?
* Whom did they see at the tomb?
* God change?
* Destruction of cities (what said was Jeremiah was Zechariah)
* Who's sepulchers?
* Strong drink?
* When second coming?
* Solomon's overseers
* The mother of Abijah
* When did Baasha die?
* How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
* Who was Josiah's successor?
* The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah
* What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
* What did they give him to drink?
* How long was Jesus in the tomb?


So which version is taken out of context?
Which one is just a metaphor?
Which one is right?

See what I mean?

[F-16 CHIEF]

I can understand confusion about what's a metaphor and what isn't. But, that's where taking time to study it comes into play.

Surely you can say that you understand that when he says "it's easier for a camel to enter into the eye of a needle than a rich man to go to Heaven", he is referring to how hard it is for a rich person to be a humble servant of his? Right? I mean come on. It really is that easy.

Like, when I was younger, my Dad would say that my sister was about as graceful as a cat trying to bury a turd on a frozen pond. Did he literally mean that she looked like a feline? No. Did I get the point? Yes.

I believe that a lot of the points that Jesus made was so people couldn't date it. If he only said sell your donkey, then people would say "see, he was only talking about back then".

Nobody on this earth can answer every question you can come up with. I don't know where you got that list, but it's not yours. That has to be some copy and paste from some athiest site.

I mean seriously. How did Judas die? He hung himself. The Bible then tells us he went on to fall head first in that field. Did his old nasty body fall off the rope? Did he do it trying to hang himself? Who knows? It's two different people describing the scene. We don't have to ability to ask, hey man, what did you mean by that.

Salvation is still clear however. Despite what that video tries to do, the New Testament is solid that there's only one way and that's Jesus Christ.

What I think is odd is that you don't have a problem with the idea of salvation. You have a problem with it being as easy as the Bible and myself claim it to be. Is that the case?

[swampdragon]

Really?
Where, link please.

That confused me too.
lol....

[swampdragon]

I can understand confusion about what's a metaphor and what isn't. But, that's where taking time to study it comes into play.

Surely you can say that you understand that when he says "it's easier for a camel to enter into the eye of a needle than a rich man to go to Heaven", he is referring to how hard it is for a rich person to be a humble servant of his? Right? I mean come on. It really is that easy.

Like, when I was younger, my Dad would say that my sister was about as graceful as a cat trying to bury a turd on a frozen pond. Did he literally mean that she looked like a feline? No. Did I get the point? Yes.

I believe that a lot of the points that Jesus made was so people couldn't date it. If he only said sell your donkey, then people would say "see, he was only talking about back then".

Nobody on this earth can answer every question you can come up with. I don't know where you got that list, but it's not yours. That has to be some copy and paste from some athiest site.

I mean seriously. How did Judas die? He hung himself. The Bible then tells us he went on to fall head first in that field. Did his old nasty body fall off the rope? Did he do it trying to hang himself? Who knows? It's two different people describing the scene. We don't have to ability to ask, hey man, what did you mean by that.

Salvation is still clear however. Despite what that video tries to do, the New Testament is solid that there's only one way and that's Jesus Christ.

What I think is odd is that you don't have a problem with the idea of salvation. You have a problem with it being as easy as the Bible and myself claim it to be. Is that the case?

Not sure where to begin here.

No, the list is not mine. Never said it was. Same as the Bible is not yours and you didn't write that. So, moot point.

I understand what a metaphor is. But thanks for clarifying it anyways...lol.

The point you are missing is that each metaphor still represents "something."
And each "something" is still yet another step to salvation/eternal life/heaven.
Since each "something" is different, then so is each step.
Therefor, the video is still correct that simply believing...and "only" believing, in John 3-16 is wrong.
There is more to it whether you express it through metaphors or straight talk.

You are right when you say that I don't have a problem with salvation.
I think it's a cute story that makes people feel good.
But, I also find it delusional.
I find the God of the Bible to be one of the biggest tyrants in history.

************************************************** *

On the same token however CHIEF,
Please tell me what part of this sounds like a metaphor?
It sounds pretty straight forward and very simple to me:

Luke 18:18-23 (King James Version)

18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

So why didn't Jesus just tell the guy "Accept me as your Savior" and leave it at that?
The reason is because that's not the only step...





24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

25For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?

27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

The only thing the camel part is actually saying is that Jesus thinks all people with money are corrupt.
That's probably only because he was unemployed and on food stamps until he was in his 30's.
Either way, he told him to get rid of his stuff.
That counts as a step.

And then he also told the guy, "Come on Dude...You have to come with me."
That counts as a step too.
lol...

The only "weak attempt" (to use your own words) I keep seeing my whole life is usually by Christians who don't want to understand what they are actually reading.
:spin-icon:

P.S.
The Bible quotes came from a NON-atheist site. Does that somehow make them more credible to you?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18&version=KJV

[F-16 CHIEF]

"So why didn't Jesus just tell the guy "Accept me as your Savior" and leave it at that?
The reason is because that's not the only step"

Well, take this with the knowledge that you're dealing with a regular dude and not a scholar, but it seems pretty easy to me.

The man was rich. Jesus knew that. The answer that he gave him, in my opinion, was to see what his God was. Was he interested in Jesus or was he interested in money? Considering he was very sorrowful when Jesus answered him that way, I would surmize that he wasn't seeking Jesus as much as the assurance or something.

Could I be wrong? Yep. I could be.

About salvation? Nope. Because I have many more times where Jesus tells you the path to salvation.

Matt 10:32 Jesus speaking here "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." So, that ties in with Romans 10:13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

All I can do is take him for what he says. Am I ignoring the story you are showing me? Of course not. I've seen it a million times. I just believe that he was testing the rich man by asking him to sell what he had.

You also have to look at the entire chapter. In the verse before it, he says "Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therin".

So, here he just said that you have to have the faith of a child and a rich man then proceeds to ask how to get into Heaven? So, Jesus tested the rich man. The rich man had just heard the answer, yet he was asking again? So, Jesus knowing that he was a pretty good dude tell him "you know the commandments". So, this guy is thinking that his God (money), is safe. He then learns that following Christ can mean giving up some stuff. He wasn't willing. He wanted salvation without trusting everything, including his lack of money and then security, and trusting Christ.

Now, again, this is my interpretation, but instead of googling athiest sites to argue about, why not google Christian sites to try and get and explanation. If you're looking for answers against the Bible, that's what you'll find.

[F-16 CHIEF]

By the way, that same story is in Matthew 19:16 and Mark 17:17.

Just because Matthew and Mark didn't tell the same story with the exact words, does that make it less credible?

I believe that in Matthew, something major is in there to add. Jesus tells him if he is to be perfect, the sell everything. I think it's key that the guy felt he had lived a perfect life. Jesus exposes this thought by telling him to do the one thing he wasn't willing to do. So, not only can he not be perfect and earn his way to heaven, but he couldn't even follow the command that the disciples did of selling everything. I really fell that Jesus was playing off this guys thought that he could do something to go to heaven.

[swampdragon]

"So why didn't Jesus just tell the guy "Accept me as your Savior" and leave it at that?
The reason is because that's not the only step"

Well, take this with the knowledge that you're dealing with a regular dude and not a scholar, but it seems pretty easy to me.

The man was rich. Jesus knew that. The answer that he gave him, in my opinion, was to see what his God was. Was he interested in Jesus or was he interested in money? Considering he was very sorrowful when Jesus answered him that way, I would surmize that he wasn't seeking Jesus as much as the assurance or something.

Could I be wrong? Yep. I could be.

About salvation? Nope. Because I have many more times where Jesus tells you the path to salvation.

Matt 10:32 Jesus speaking here "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." So, that ties in with Romans 10:13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

All I can do is take him for what he says. Am I ignoring the story you are showing me? Of course not. I've seen it a million times. I just believe that he was testing the rich man by asking him to sell what he had.

You also have to look at the entire chapter. In the verse before it, he says "Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therin".

So, here he just said that you have to have the faith of a child and a rich man then proceeds to ask how to get into Heaven? So, Jesus tested the rich man. The rich man had just heard the answer, yet he was asking again? So, Jesus knowing that he was a pretty good dude tell him "you know the commandments". So, this guy is thinking that his God (money), is safe. He then learns that following Christ can mean giving up some stuff. He wasn't willing. He wanted salvation without trusting everything, including his lack of money and then security, and trusting Christ.

Now, again, this is my interpretation, but instead of googling athiest sites to argue about, why not google Christian sites to try and get and explanation. If you're looking for answers against the Bible, that's what you'll find.

OK. I can see where you think it could have been a test.
And that's what I'm looking for.
Your opinion.

What I don't understand is why?
What's wrong with working hard and having money?
We all strive for that every single day.
It's part of survival.

If some hippie walked up to me and said something like, "Get rid of everything you own and come hang out with me...and you'll get to go to a cool place "after" you die".....I'd chase him off my property at gunpoint and probably call the cops to report a nut on the loose.

Why do you assume I only visit Atheist websites?
I came from a Christian home and even attended a Christian private school, church and Sunday school too.
I also studied comparative religion.
Did you know any of that?

[swampdragon]

By the way, that same story is in Matthew 19:16 and Mark 17:17.

Just because Matthew and Mark didn't tell the same story with the exact words, does that make it less credible?

I believe that in Matthew, something major is in there to add. Jesus tells him if he is to be perfect, the sell everything. I think it's key that the guy felt he had lived a perfect life. Jesus exposes this thought by telling him to do the one thing he wasn't willing to do. So, not only can he not be perfect and earn his way to heaven, but he couldn't even follow the command that the disciples did of selling everything. I really fell that Jesus was playing off this guys thought that he could do something to go to heaven.

If two humans both witness the same event, they still may tell different versions of the story.
This part I understand completely...and I agree too.
It happens every single day when different witness explain the same traffic accident to the cops for instance.

The difference however is that God is supposed to be perfect and the Bible is supposed to be the word of God.
So...it would follow that the Bible should "not" be conflicting if it was the actual Word of God.

So I submit that the Bible is not the Word of God at all.
It was written for man by man and that's it.
No Godly supernatural stuff was involved at all.

But back to the rich guy.......

"Be fruitful and multiply."
oh.....but by the way....Don't.......because you cannot get into Heaven if you do?
That makes no sense.
Just another contradiction.
(and it wasn't even on my evil Atheist website list....:oh:) lol

[infidel.forever]

well it's been interesting

as for a link not everything is in the web try print media where one Australian came here was abused his ( my ) nation abused and when it got personal someone called your INS and put the guy in as a lunatic and had him blocked from entry to the USA for a shooting comp..

Try Australian Outdoors magazine jan this year i think ( i said i think ok ? maybe it was another month)

i did not start this thread and the person who did start it now stated they did not start it

i've met many like this in my life

those who start fights and arguments and then scream 'IT WASN"T MY FAULT"

at least with the ones who do this in a bar you can have a crack at them back,

but here keyboard commando say anything they want until theres a comeback like the aussie on his way to the US to shoot , then they run and hide behind falsehood and outright lies

i do get to the US and dont wish that screwed up like the other bloke so i'll leave you all too it and as for the one who started this

hey you gutless peice of crap

one day you'll die ,

one day you'll realize there is more to life than your intellect ( way more) and what you can see

and when your bent over getting a mack truck shoved where the sun dont shine think of this chat then , think how clever you are and realise you'll have a enternity of it to come, hey maybe after a few thousand years you'll like it..

personally i hope they use a western star long nose

but you think you can dodge that by blaming everyone else for your actions then too i bet

take some responcability you lying wimp turd for your own actions or have you gone the obama way too where its never your fault, its bushes fault or the UK's fault

or whoever

you searched the net for that , you loaded it up and you posted it with the shit stirring remark

but its not your fault??

hahahaha

you gutless POS

to the rest sorry gents ( ladies too if there any)

but if you want to stay with a sellout who'll shop everyone else to save his butt thats fine , but me ? we kick those kind out of our military but this is not my place so..

i quit

thanks for the PM by the way

save it for someone who gives a toss

like your friend swampie i can see he's a expert tosser

[F-16 CHIEF]

I think he was testing the man because he knew the man's God was money. Nothing wrong with money at all.

I did know that you came from a Christian home.

The only thing I was asking is before playing Devil's advocate, do you search Christian sites for these answers? That's what I was getting at.

[Zygomatic]

I know not all Christians are like this, but this it the type of Christian that keeps me away from Christianity. Well, that and the thing about God wanting to drive a Mac truck up my ass. I guess I'm looking for a little nicer god to worship. :)



one day you'll die ,

one day you'll realize there is more to life than your intellect ( way more) and what you can see

and when your bent over getting a mack truck shoved where the sun dont shine think of this chat then , think how clever you are and realise you'll have a enternity of it to come, hey maybe after a few thousand years you'll like it..

personally i hope they use a western star long nose

but you think you can dodge that by blaming everyone else for your actions then too i bet

take some responcability you lying wimp turd for your own actions or have you gone the obama way too where its never your fault, its bushes fault or the UK's fault

or whoever

you searched the net for that , you loaded it up and you posted it with the shit stirring remark

but its not your fault??

hahahaha

you gutless POS

[F-16 CHIEF]

Check the sticky at the top of this forum. That's the God of the Bible. One who loves you and care enough to send his son to die for you. Don't listen to what others say. Just read about God from the Bible.

Message boards are bad places to get good pictures of God's love. :)

[Paladin]

Comments?...

Swampy, thanks for the post. I've watched the video, and read all the comments. If I offered up my "opinion" it would resemble a book, and I think both "sides" would be upset with me.

Let me just say, I am sorry there is not a campfire and some beers involved after an afternoon's shooting; I would probably have something to say...

[Paladin]

Check the sticky at the top of this forum. That's the God of the Bible. One who loves you and care enough to send his son to die for you. Don't listen to what others say. Just read about God from the Bible...Message boards are bad places to get good pictures of God's love. :)

Thanks chief...

[Phil O'Mel]

Little children. It's a metaphor. All of us who have little children know that they have complete faith and trust in us. They see us as their protector and provider. That's the metaphor.

Actually, the only aim of religion is to get people to profess belief in things they can't understand. That's what faith is, and it's not a virtue by a long shot.

"Blessed are the credulous, for they shall be called the red-headed stepchildren of God."

[F-16 CHIEF]

Actually, the only aim of religion is to get people to profess belief in things they can't understand. That's what faith is, and it's not a virtue by a long shot.

"Blessed are the credulous, for they shall be called the red-headed stepchildren of God."

Well, it's not working. I can't understand liberals like you who troll conservative message boards. Oh well, I'll just go be the red-headed step child of God. That will do for me.

[Zygomatic]

Check the sticky at the top of this forum. That's the God of the Bible. One who loves you and care enough to send his son to die for you. Don't listen to what others say. Just read about God from the Bible.


I don't see it that way. I was on the fence about the whole God thing until I had children. At that point I decided the biblical god is either false, or is unworthy of our worship.

My children love our dog. I would not ask my children to kill our dog to prove their love to me. God and Abraham.

My children love me. I would not punch my children in the face just to see if they would start to hate me. God and Job.

My children sometimes misbehave. I would not become so frustrated and angry that I kill them off because of it. God and Noah.

And I would not tourture my children for eternity because they questioned me or tried to think for themselves. God and his followers.

This is the nature of the biblical god as I see it. How god treats his children and how I treat my children are quite different.

I fully understand the appeal of having a faith, and of knowing all the answers, but I have had to settle for trying to be good and fair to others every day and taking pleasure in trying to become a better person. Really that's all we have and I can understand how that could scare people.

Sorry for the off topic rambling. I'll be quiet now. ;)

[F-16 CHIEF]

Do you love other people enough to give your child over to death to save them?

That's how much God loves you.

Some of the Old Testament is really brutal. There's some tough lessons and hard things to swallow.

Don't you think that people can take comfort when they are sticken with disease and loss of family and see the way Job handled it? It's a learning tool for us.

And with Noah. This world, this life, your job, your country, and your state, are not without laws and rules. Why would God not have laws to abide by? The world was wicked and he laid his punishment down. What's any difference in any other form of structure?

Either way, why focus on that when Jesus never hurt a fly. He had you and me on his mind when he suffered a horrible death on the cross for us. The same God that you are talking about loved us that much.

[swampdragon]

well it's been interesting

as for a link not everything is in the web try print media where one Australian came here was abused his ( my ) nation abused and when it got personal someone called your INS and put the guy in as a lunatic and had him blocked from entry to the USA for a shooting comp..

Try Australian Outdoors magazine jan this year i think ( i said i think ok ? maybe it was another month)

i did not start this thread and the person who did start it now stated they did not start it

i've met many like this in my life

those who start fights and arguments and then scream 'IT WASN"T MY FAULT"

at least with the ones who do this in a bar you can have a crack at them back,

but here keyboard commando say anything they want until theres a comeback like the aussie on his way to the US to shoot , then they run and hide behind falsehood and outright lies

i do get to the US and dont wish that screwed up like the other bloke so i'll leave you all too it and as for the one who started this

hey you gutless peice of crap

one day you'll die ,

one day you'll realize there is more to life than your intellect ( way more) and what you can see

and when your bent over getting a mack truck shoved where the sun dont shine think of this chat then , think how clever you are and realise you'll have a enternity of it to come, hey maybe after a few thousand years you'll like it..

personally i hope they use a western star long nose

but you think you can dodge that by blaming everyone else for your actions then too i bet

take some responcability you lying wimp turd for your own actions or have you gone the obama way too where its never your fault, its bushes fault or the UK's fault

or whoever

you searched the net for that , you loaded it up and you posted it with the shit stirring remark

but its not your fault??

hahahaha

you gutless POS

to the rest sorry gents ( ladies too if there any)

but if you want to stay with a sellout who'll shop everyone else to save his butt thats fine , but me ? we kick those kind out of our military but this is not my place so..

i quit

thanks for the PM by the way

save it for someone who gives a toss

like your friend swampie i can see he's a expert tosser

You seem upset.
Quite thin skinned.
Feminine even.
Are you a girl?

I didn't start a fight.
I posted a thread and you freaked out.
:teufel:
:yeah:

[swampdragon]

I know not all Christians are like this, but this it the type of Christian that keeps me away from Christianity. Well, that and the thing about God wanting to drive a Mac truck up my ass. I guess I'm looking for a little nicer god to worship. :)

Evidently I'm a POS and gutless too.
Who knew?
lol...

[swampdragon]

Do you love other people enough to give your child over to death to save them?

That's how much God loves you.

Some of the Old Testament is really brutal. There's some tough lessons and hard things to swallow.

Don't you think that people can take comfort when they are sticken with disease and loss of family and see the way Job handled it? It's a learning tool for us.

And with Noah. This world, this life, your job, your country, and your state, are not without laws and rules. Why would God not have laws to abide by? The world was wicked and he laid his punishment down. What's any difference in any other form of structure?

Either way, why focus on that when Jesus never hurt a fly. He had you and me on his mind when he suffered a horrible death on the cross for us. The same God that you are talking about loved us that much.

I guess the difference would be that if I was angry at a couple people (like Adan & Eve) I would punish them. Not all their descendants too for ever and ever for something they had no part of.
And if I was angry with a town or two, I'd not destroy the entire world.

And as for the God letting Jesus die for us thing...
If I actually was the smartest, all knowing, most power being in the universe...I think I could have found a better way to handle the situation other than killing my kid.

[Zygomatic]

Do you love other people enough to give your child over to death to save them?

That's how much God loves you.

Of course not. And god did not either. Jesus is supposed to be the son of god, and as such he is immortal. He did not die, and he would have had first hand knowledge of god and heaven. That would have made his short, physical life a cakewalk. He knew what was on the other side and he knew he would survive his physical death. Where is the sacrifice here?





Don't you think that people can take comfort when they are stricken with disease and loss of family and see the way Job handled it? It's a learning tool for us.

No I don't see it that way. When my family is stricken with disease, (daughter having brain tumors for example) we understand this is something that can happen to people and we pull together and make our way through it (she is in great shape now).
In the case of Job, the whole point of the story was god fell to the devils temptation to test Job out. And all the rotten things that happened to Job were not just things that happened, but they were the result of god poking him with his almighty stick to prove a point to satin. And Job knew it. In the end God won his bet and Job paid the price. Lost all his stuff and his family because god got into a pissing contest with the devil. Not so much the kind of management I want to work under ;)



And with Noah. This world, this life, your job, your country, and your state, are not without laws and rules. Why would God not have laws to abide by? The world was wicked and he laid his punishment down. What's any difference in any other form of structure?

Of course there are rules in everything and they need to be enforced. I can only think of a few characters, however, who have promoted genocide as an enforcement tool.




Either way, why focus on that when Jesus never hurt a fly. He had you and me on his mind when he suffered a horrible death on the cross for us. The same God that you are talking about loved us that much.

Jesus is only a PR guy for God the Father. God is still the head dude. They are playing a game of good cop/bad cop with us. God has already demonstrated his regard for his creations. I just don't want to play this game.


F-16, I want to tell you, I have no desire to, and am not attempting to turn you or any other person from their faith. Even if I wanted to I know I could not. I admire your faith and I am somewhat envious of you that you can have answers and a framework which make you comfortable. My wife and children are Lutherans and I support and encourage them in it. I will let my children make up their own minds about what they believe, but I will not shy away from telling them how I see it.

Also, I rarely get into these conversations with believers, because we are never really talking about the same thing. To you we are talking about something very really and personal to you. For me, we might as well be debating weather or not Darth Vader did or did not love his son Luke Skywalker. These are all fictional characters to me.

I'm leaving for the weekend to take the family up the the cottage for some relaxation and fishing. Have a great weekend, everyone.

[Mark Ducati]

Here's the deal.... works are not needed for entrance to Heaven. No man can EARN his way to Heaven as salvation is a free gift from God. You can't earn or buy something that's free.

Man with sin cannot be in God's presence, and that sin must be paid for... the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid that debt for your sins by dying on the cross. Thus you are sin-free in the presence of God if you accept Jesus for atoning for your sins.

Where good works and such come into play is "storing for yourself treasures in Heaven"... if you're saved and go to heaven, you will be "cleansed/refined by fire leaving only the good works you've done as precious gems"...

Some in Heaven will have more than others... but it matters not as there is no greed or jealousy in Heaven...

I'll be glad just to be there.

[Krupski]

Here's the deal.... works are not needed for entrance to Heaven. No man can EARN his way to Heaven as salvation is a free gift from God. You can't earn or buy something that's free.
Man with sin cannot be in God's presence, and that sin must be paid for... the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid that debt for your sins by dying on the cross.

Mark this is not against you personally, but it's for all those who cite the Bible as "fact"......

What ARROGANCE it is for man (humans) to act and talk as though they KNOW what God wants or expects. Even MORE arrogant and absurd is the notion that God created the whole universe for humans and their tiny little blue planet.

Statistically, there must be millions if not billions of "intelligent" (that is, self-aware) life forms just in our one galaxy.

Look up in the sky and you see stars and you see some "fuzzy stars". Each of those fuzzy stars is an entire galaxy, with countless billions of self-aware life forms.

I believe in God because everywhere I look, I see God's work, AND I realize that all I can see is only a bacterial speck compared to the totality of God's creations.

Even someone like me, who is naturally arrogant and a general pain in the ass would NEVER go so far as to claim that I know what God wants or expects.

The only thing that's worse yet is the group of people who claim to be "chosen" by God. "Arrogance" is too mild a word to describe that.

[Solidus-snake]

LAWL I was wondering when Swamp would bring this one up :]

[swampdragon]

Mark this is not against you personally, but it's for all those who cite the Bible as "fact"......

What ARROGANCE it is for man (humans) to act and talk as though they KNOW what God wants or expects. Even MORE arrogant and absurd is the notion that God created the whole universe for humans and their tiny little blue planet.

Statistically, there must be millions if not billions of "intelligent" (that is, self-aware) life forms just in our one galaxy.

Look up in the sky and you see stars and you see some "fuzzy stars". Each of those fuzzy stars is an entire galaxy, with countless billions of self-aware life forms.

I believe in God because everywhere I look, I see God's work, AND I realize that all I can see is only a bacterial speck compared to the totality of God's creations.

Even someone like me, who is naturally arrogant and a general pain in the ass would NEVER go so far as to claim that I know what God wants or expects.

The only thing that's worse yet is the group of people who claim to be "chosen" by God. "Arrogance" is too mild a word to describe that.

I'm with ya 100% here.
I said a very similar thing when I posted the video showing the size of the universe.

[swampdragon]

Here's the deal.... works are not needed for entrance to Heaven. No man can EARN his way to Heaven as salvation is a free gift from God. You can't earn or buy something that's free.

Man with sin cannot be in God's presence, and that sin must be paid for... the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid that debt for your sins by dying on the cross. Thus you are sin-free in the presence of God if you accept Jesus for atoning for your sins.

Where good works and such come into play is "storing for yourself treasures in Heaven"... if you're saved and go to heaven, you will be "cleansed/refined by fire leaving only the good works you've done as precious gems"...

Some in Heaven will have more than others... but it matters not as there is no greed or jealousy in Heaven...

I'll be glad just to be there.

So all I have to do is believe Jesus died and washed away my sins and I go to heaven?
If I do a few good works here and there, I get more stuff?
That sounds pretty simplistic.

[F-16 CHIEF]

Statistically, there must be millions if not billions of "intelligent" (that is, self-aware) life forms just in our one galaxy.

Look up in the sky and you see stars and you see some "fuzzy stars". Each of those fuzzy stars is an entire galaxy, with countless billions of self-aware life forms.



Not to start a huge debate, but man, that takes a lot of faith to believe that there are countless billions of self aware life forms. Not one has ever been seen, touched, or heard.

Jesus walked and talked on this earth. It's historical record. His existance isn't debatable. What is debatable is whether you believe he was the Son of God or not.

I believe in him because he answers prayers and has saved me. I can have faith in his promise in Heaven because he's already worked in my life. Little green men have never worked in anyones life, yet millions of people on this earth have complete faith that they exist. Seems backwards to me.

[swampdragon]

Not to start a huge debate, but man, that takes a lot of faith to believe that there are countless billions of self aware life forms. Not one has ever been seen, touched, or heard.

Jesus walked and talked on this earth. It's historical record. His existance isn't debatable. What is debatable is whether you believe he was the Son of God or not.

I believe in him because he answers prayers and has saved me. I can have faith in his promise in Heaven because he's already worked in my life. Little green men have never worked in anyones life, yet millions of people on this earth have complete faith that they exist. Seems backwards to me.

So you're saying lil green men are stupid but lil invisible men are OK?

"Christ is supposed to have been a Jew, and his disciples are said to have been Jewish fishermen. His language, and the language of his followers must, therefore, have been Aramaic--the popular language of Palestine in that age. But the Gospels are written in Greek--every one of them. Nor were they translated from some other language. Every leading Christian scholar since Erasmus, four hundred years ago, has maintained that they were originally written in Greek. This proves that they were not written by Christ's disciples, or by any of the early Christians. Foreign Gospels, written by unknown men, in a foreign tongue, several generations after the death of those who are supposed to have known the facts--such is the evidence relied upon to prove that Jesus lived."

The above statement came from a Jewish site, not Atheist. But it is correct.
Within the realm of faith, Jews are willing to concede that "maybe" there could have been a guy named Jesus at one point or another...maybe.
But that's about it.
All of the "historical" record you speak of is only found within religious texts. Not historical documents.

EDIT: I stand corrected CHIEF. That statement came from a secular website. But I read the same thing at multiple places, so I got confused there for a second.

[Krupski]

Not to start a huge debate, but man, that takes a lot of faith to believe that there are countless billions of self aware life forms. Not one has ever been seen, touched, or heard.

Jesus walked and talked on this earth. It's historical record. His existance isn't debatable. What is debatable is whether you believe he was the Son of God or not.


It takes no faith to assume that there must be self aware life elsewhere in the universe. It's statistically guaranteed.

Now, let's ASSUME that self-aware "intelligent" life forms are indeed all throughout the universe. I'll bet that they are all competitive, inquisitive, selfish and ruthless... just like humans are.

Human technology would have never developed without curiosity... and it's well known that the "stronger" always dominate the "weaker".

If there are "aliens" who have technology very much advanced compared to what we have, what would they do if they came to earth?

They would turn us into cattle. We might fight it, but it would be impossible to beat their technology. And, I'm sure that the aliens would have evolved with the same curiosity and ruthlessness that man has... for the simple reason that they wouldn't GET ahead unless they walked over others.

So, maybe in God's infinite wisdom, He placed the stars and inhabited planets far enough apart AND imposed the speed-of-light limit to keep us separated. That's why we have never seen them. (and they're probably not "green" either!) :)

Now, to address your second line... I believe that if God sent His Son Jesus Christ to save US, then He also sent Christ to every other self-aware life form in the universe.

Billions... zillions of Jesus Christs? Why not? Surely you can't place a limit on God and say "that's impossible".

Did Jesus Christ walk on this planet? The Bible says so... I've never seen Him personally, but I have no reason to DOUBT the Bible.

But, did Jesus also walk on countless OTHER planets as well (in the form of the life that lives there)? Sure. Why not? An "infinite" number of Jesus Christs? Sure. If the Trinity refers to the one God, why not a bazillion refer to one God?

Frankly, I think the idea of God sending His only Son to "save" us is just a parable intended to convey the concept of "ultimate love". After all, what's THE MOST difficult thing ANY parent could do besides sacrifice their ONLY CHILD for some cause?

But, God, being all powerful, has no need to play games like that. If we need to be "saved", all God needs to do is say so and it's done.

Lastly... I could go on and write a lot more about this... I firmly believe that when I was in my 20's, SOMETHING intervened on my behalf and saved me from a terribly destructive activity and I'm sure that something was God. The whole story it too long to write out now (and I'm sleepy anyway). Remind me some time if you're interested and I'll post it.

[Krupski]

How could Jesus be his only son if he made me?
There's something wrong with that.
He created Adam, doesn't that make him his son?
What about the other children in the bible. Didn't he make them too?

Jesus was a prophet. A child, not the only.

Depends on what you mean by "make". Did my wife and I "make" our kids? Sure, we "lit the fuse" and started the cellular division guided by DNA and the end result was a smart mouth teenager ( :) ) but WE did not design DNA or invent the process of life.

So, who's children are they? Ours, or God's?

Oh... the Adam and Eve thing... pure bunk. If it were true, all sexual relations would be incest. And, what about the bit about God using one of Adam's ribs to make Eve? Since when does God need to scrounge spare parts? :)

[Krupski]

Damn swampy lube it before you shove it in.The guy may be new to this...

Every new Gunsnet membership should come with a jar of Vaseline. Can you imagine the puzzled look on a newbie... "what's this for?" :lool:

[swampdragon]

LAWL I was wondering when Swamp would bring this one up :]

Well it wouldn't be much of a religious "issues" forum without some friendly debates here and there.
And look...this thread has more replies than all the others so far...lol.
I'm just keeping it entertaining.
Well...except for that infidel guy. He got kinda pissed!
:laughingtohard:

I mean look....so far we've got everything from heaven to the universe to the speed of light to aliens to prophets to Adam & Eve...and more.
Now THAT's fun!

:yeah:

[swampdragon]

... Sure, we "lit the fuse" and started the cellular division guided by DNA and the end result was a smart mouth teenager...



ROFLMAO....:yeah:



And, what about the bit about God using one of Adam's ribs to make Eve? Since when does God need to scrounge spare parts? :)

And again....:laughingtohard:

[Mark Ducati]

This has become quite an interesting thread for me....

For the record, I do believe in life elsewhere in the universe.

I find it plausible that Jesus/God who created us to be some sort of an ancient alien way more advanced than us... this belief does not negate my beliefs about the bible and what it says.

The Ark of the Covenant was on the discovery channel the other night in the show ancient aliens... they hypothesized that the contents of the Ark contained some sort of nuclear reactor which is why when opened by those not allowed to, they died (radiation exposure?)... for 40 years as the jews wandered the desert, they hypothesized that this reactor was used to grow algae for food for them and also used as a weapon to defeat their enemies.

When Jesus ascended into Heaven... can you imagine that site? "Beam me up Scotty".

Making Eve from Adam's rib... sounds like cloning to me with a head start using Adam's DNA blueprint for man found in the bone marrow.

[deth502]

Jesus walked and talked on this earth. It's historical record. His existance isn't debatable.

i wouldnt call being written in one book "historical record". there were many other scholars writing of the news and events of the time in the same areas, yet none of them specifically mention jesus. one would think that a man walking around preforming miracles, walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine, ect, ect.. would have attracted the attention of at least one of them?

now, otoh, there are thousands and thousands of seperate reports of kooks saying htey have been adducted by aliens, all with no relationship to one another. judging by that, there is more of a "historical record" that there are little green aliens just waiting to probe our rectal cavaties than there is for jesus christ.

[RJ Shooter]

...there were many other scholars writing of the news and events of the time in the same areas...Name them, and post links to their works! Please...

As an Amateur Historian, I can provide many texts external of the Gospels to prove the positive - but I'll instead challenge you to prove the negative. I'm sick of this debate against Christians and Christianity in this forum. So, my goal is to now prove the ignorance of those ignorant.

Your turn. Prove your point!

[deth502]

Josephus
Philo-Judæus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones
Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

all of which lived during the time that jesus supposedly walked the earth or within less than 100 years after, yet not a mention of a man preforming widespread miracles claiming to be the son of god. funny, youd think that would make the news??

and with that im done. its my fault for being so quick to forget how the convoluted logic of a religious zealot works. any comment made on their religion is taken as a direct insult on themselves, and they feel the need to reply with insults instead of facts. yes, very well then, i am apparently too stupid to know what im talking about.

and you have to love the logic of "well, you prove it didnt happen"

how about this fact, there was a jesus christ, son of god. he was a gay serial killing pedophile. he used to lure small boys into his dwelling, tie them up and rape them repeatedly, then kill them and bury them behind his house. balls in your court now, rj. show me irrefutable proof that this wasnt true from 3rd party unbiased witnesses.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/deth502/52625469_7ea7c15a1244359648.jpg

[RJ Shooter]

Cut N' Paste after a quick search is sooooo much fun, but not very factual in most cases...

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/remslist.html - This response is much more efficient than I could do here.

Many did in fact mention Jesus, your first name included! I guess you didn't research, you just hit paste - having "faith" that your information was correct. Josephus (the most famous Jewish Historian) mentions Jesus Of Nazareth twice, as well as "People Of The Way." Many of those you've listed lived during the time of Julius Caesar, as well as other prominent figures during the time. Why were they not mentioned by these known sources???? Just because someone "isn't" mentioned, is not proof that they did not exist! How many of these names you listed were historians? Hardly any! Your assumption that He should have been mentioned is extremely weak, and ignorant.

And for what it's worth, I guess "LOVE" or even "HATE" do not exist either. You can't see, feel, hear or touch either. All you know is the resultant action of their existence. Of course, if you could PROVE to me that Love exists, you would be proving my point. You obviously have experience with hate...

Or how about wind? Unless wind contains a foreign element, or is impacting an object in it's path, how can you see or know it exists? You can't! But it does have an effect on objects, just like gravity. Things exist without you being able to show me physically, that they do! Your very weak "physical sight" analogy is flawed logic, scientifically, and thereby proves a lack of intelligent worth to the subject being discussed here!

Darkness is not a measurable matter, it's viewed as a lack of light. Cold is not a measurable matter, it's viewed as a lack of heat. But you see and experience both, do you not?

Have anything else to Cut N' Paste? Or someone else work to use? Or is it the norm for your type, to start calling names and throwing malicious attacks as you leave?

Try again...

[Paladin]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/deth502/52625469_7ea7c15a1244359648.jpg

Spiritual Logic

1 Corinthians 2

1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

[deth502]

i saw absolutely no valid response to any of the issues in question there. the fact that someone mentioned jesus of nazareth is the same as citing jesus christ as a hispanic boxer. so you use the fact that instead of trying to verify the spelling on the 6-7 i knew, searching it and pasting the list of names somehow makes any difference to the facts at hand.

heres one last cut and paste for you:


hyp·o·crite
   /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Show Spelled[hip-uh-krit] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[RJ Shooter]

i saw absolutely no valid response to any of the issues in question there.Of course you didn't. You're a closed-minded bigot. Obviously... I think I pointed out very well, the errors of your post. The link I provided counters much of what you have stated, whether or not you believe them. And my hypothetical scenarios even disproved your silly "logic" poster.

But, of course, I'm not expecting you to concede or change your belief system, simply because I think you're moronic for believing the way you do. Nor do I even care! Unfortunately, you don't have the same courtesy for me and those that believe like me. Therein lies the difference. Boisterous Bigotry...

...and if you would, please show me ANYWHERE that I have ever been hypocritical to anyone on GunsNet. Even Swampy will tell you that I have never deviated from what I have espoused to be. As much as he hates my faith, I am no hypocrite.

So once more, try again!

[RJ Shooter]

And FWIW, I won't be posting Bible verses, Scripture, etc. to try and prove my point. Most atheistic bigots simply laugh at this kind of thing, putting their little ROTFL smilies up and giggling, laughing or scoffing at what they don't understand or are afraid of. There is absolutely no reason to reply negatively to these religious threads unless you have obvious issues with the subject.

Main Entry: ar·ro·gance
Pronunciation: \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

[F-16 CHIEF]

Deth, one thing to remember is that Jerusalem was burned because of Jesus follwers.

Nobody has ever burned a city and tortured a group of followers who worshiped the Tooth Fairy or Santa.

I think most athiests would admit that for the most part, historical record supports Jesus' life. It's whether you believe he's your Savior or not.

[swampdragon]

This has become quite an interesting thread for me....

For the record, I do believe in life elsewhere in the universe.

I find it plausible that Jesus/God who created us to be some sort of an ancient alien way more advanced than us... this belief does not negate my beliefs about the bible and what it says.

The Ark of the Covenant was on the discovery channel the other night in the show ancient aliens... they hypothesized that the contents of the Ark contained some sort of nuclear reactor which is why when opened by those not allowed to, they died (radiation exposure?)... for 40 years as the jews wandered the desert, they hypothesized that this reactor was used to grow algae for food for them and also used as a weapon to defeat their enemies.

When Jesus ascended into Heaven... can you imagine that site? "Beam me up Scotty".

Making Eve from Adam's rib... sounds like cloning to me with a head start using Adam's DNA blueprint for man found in the bone marrow.

OK wow.
That was an interesting post all the way around.

[HDR]

I did.
But I didn't make the video and am not responsible for it's contents.

But your are responsible for choosing to post it; correct?



Or is it that the video challenged your beliefs and you just temporarily flew off the handle?
I'm just trying to figure out where we are right now.

Nope, the video left me believing someone wants to push his beliefs or the lack thereof on me and the key is "push on me." I could give a rat's rectum what his/her beliefs are unless he/she chooses to insult mine or the Right of others to choose theirs; then it is fun to do the same to him or her.

As the person who made the video has no clue what my beliefs are then they are quite assholish for trying to challenge what they don't know about me. About all I see in the video is someone who for some stupid reason chooses to insult someone's Right under the BoR. Are they jealous or just frustrated with their own lives or do they consider themselves to be a web evangelist selling others on their personal beliefs?

So IMO, they probably sit when they pee; unless they are female then they stand to pee and piss on themselves.

Plus even evangelists who seem to ask for money every two minutes show their face... Now I did not watch the video so I could be wrong; however somehow I sense he/she left their face out.. Please correct me if I am wrong..

[swampdragon]

But your are responsible for choosing to post it; correct?




Nope, the video left me believing someone wants to push his beliefs or the lack thereof on me and the key is "push on me." I could give a rat's rectum what his/her beliefs are unless he/she chooses to insult mine or the Right of others to choose theirs; then it is fun to do the same to him or her.

As the person who made the video has no clue what my beliefs are then they are quite assholish for trying to challenge what they don't know about me. About all I see in the video is someone who for some stupid reason chooses to insult someone's Right under the BoR. Are they jealous or just frustrated with their own lives or do they consider themselves to be a web evangelist selling others on their personal beliefs?

So IMO, they probably sit when they pee; unless they are female then they stand to pee and piss on themselves.

Plus even evangelists who seem to ask for money every two minutes show their face... Now I did not watch the video so I could be wrong; however somehow I sense he/she left their face out.. Please correct me if I am wrong..


I think you should watch the video first before you cast judgment or make assumptions either way.
You just made a whole lot of negative comments about a person in a video that you just admitted to not even watching.
I'd say that makes you no better at all in this case then.

If you agree with the video, fine. Many people do.
If you don't agree with the video, fine.
Many people don't.
But it has got people thinking and talking and discussing things.
I find Mark's posts especially interesting.

[HDR]

I think you should watch the video first before you cast judgment or make assumptions either way.
You just made a whole lot of negative comments about a person in a video that you just admitted to not even watching.
I'd say that makes you no better at all in this case then.

If you agree with the video, fine. Many people do.
If you don't agree with the video, fine.
Many people don't.
But it has got people thinking and talking and discussing things.
I find Mark's posts especially interesting.

Swampy, my attitude is the same here as with so many other things; don't ask, don't tell because I'm not interested. To be honest, I don't know why I lack an interest; it could be I'm lazy. LOL Or maybe I figured as others don't want to hear my two cents unless its the same as theirs...

Sure I made negative comments; I will do that anytime someone tries to debate the deep beliefs of another if the beliefs are positive ones. My point is why would a religious person want tp watch it in the first place? It would be the same as an atheist listening to an evangelist. Is it someone important to show respect for someone who yaps about why the faith of others isn't real or is real in a one way format? I don't have high blood pressure; so maybe this is why?

As the God debate has been more enduring than the what deer caliber is best; so it doesn't matter if I agree with the video or not. OTOH, if someone posted what was in the video and made it a two way discussion now that would be a lot more interesting.

judging by my email it has also stirred up a lot of shit...

[Krupski]

Main Entry: ar·ro·gance
Pronunciation: \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Arrogance: The assumption that the totality of God's work was all done for us and us alone.

[RJ Shooter]

Arrogance: The assumption that the totality of God's work was all done for us and us alone.I'm not sure who said it was...

[Krupski]

I'm not sure who said it was...

Most of the rabid "flyers in the face" Born Again Christians seem to believe that God made Adam and Eve and that humans are the ONLY self aware life form that exists in the universe and that the entire earth is only around 2000 years old.

Yes, I have had people tell me that with a straight face.

Carbon dating, fossils, dinosaur bones, etc... are all "planted there" by the devil to "test" their "faith" and "scientists" are surely going to hell for doing the devil's work.

Again, said with a straight face.

For that matter, in days long past, people believed that everything revolved around the earth. Anyone who said otherwise faced the Inquisition.

The reason NASA keeps the truth secret is simply that world chaos would ensue if so many people suddenly found out that they are NOT the center of God's universe and, indeed are less than dust in the wind.

They aren't ready for the truth... just like the ancient church wasn't ready to hear that the earth orbited the sun and not vice-versa.

I'm amazed that God even puts up with our shit....

[HDR]

Most of the rabid "flyers in the face" Born Again Christians seem to believe that God made Adam and Eve and that humans are the ONLY self aware life form that exists in the universe

All I can say is whoever believes all those solar systems created to wait on us would take a pretty big ego. lol



and that the entire earth is only around 2000 years old.

They need to watch the "Naked Archaeologist" on TV. If they did they'd see how Israeli archaeologists use the Old Testament as a road map to find artifacts that are 12,000 years old. Its a pretty cool show; if you don't mind Jews using the Old Testament to document the Old Testament's historic accuracy...
Do these people you mentioned realize the Old Testament goes back a long long long time. Even Muslims know that... :lool:

;)



Yes, I have had people tell me that with a straight face.

Any speculation on what kind of drugs they were on?? lol

[swampdragon]

Swampy, my attitude is the same here as with so many other things; don't ask, don't tell because I'm not interested. To be honest, I don't know why I lack an interest; it could be I'm lazy. LOL Or maybe I figured as others don't want to hear my two cents unless its the same as theirs...

Sure I made negative comments; I will do that anytime someone tries to debate the deep beliefs of another if the beliefs are positive ones. My point is why would a religious person want tp watch it in the first place? It would be the same as an atheist listening to an evangelist. Is it someone important to show respect for someone who yaps about why the faith of others isn't real or is real in a one way format? I don't have high blood pressure; so maybe this is why?

As the God debate has been more enduring than the what deer caliber is best; so it doesn't matter if I agree with the video or not. OTOH, if someone posted what was in the video and made it a two way discussion now that would be a lot more interesting.

judging by my email it has also stirred up a lot of shit...

I'm sure it may have stirred up some people.
But in all reality, why can't they just address the video with the same type of calm approach like the guy in the video and express their views in opposition?
Or demonstrate the video inaccurate instead of flying all off the handle and going mentally nuts?
I just don't get it.

[Paladin]

I'm sure it may have stirred up some people.
But in all reality, why can't they just address the video with the same type of calm approach like the guy in the video and express their views in opposition?
Or demonstrate the video inaccurate instead of flying all off the handle and going mentally nuts?
I just don't get it.

Hey, that's what i did. Took a xanax and replied. LOL

[308]

Most of the rabid "flyers in the face" Born Again Christians seem to believe that God made Adam and Eve and that humans are the ONLY self aware life form that exists in the universe and that the entire earth is only around 2000 years old.

Yes, I have had people tell me that with a straight face.

Carbon dating, fossils, dinosaur bones, etc... are all "planted there" by the devil to "test" their "faith" and "scientists" are surely going to hell for doing the devil's work.

Again, said with a straight face.

For that matter, in days long past, people believed that everything revolved around the earth. Anyone who said otherwise faced the Inquisition.

The reason NASA keeps the truth secret is simply that world chaos would ensue if so many people suddenly found out that they are NOT the center of God's universe and, indeed are less than dust in the wind.

They aren't ready for the truth... just like the ancient church wasn't ready to hear that the earth orbited the sun and not vice-versa.

I'm amazed that God even puts up with our shit....

It's almost like you build this big straw-man called "they" and then you go swinging away attempting to demonstrate your superiority to "they"...and then you void any credibility to your words by claiming NASA is keeping secrets so "they" don't freak out...unlike you of course, because you understand...you are on board and enlightened, unlike "they"

Seems they are everywhere. Union guys claim they are fukn them over and others claim they are keeping them down because of skin color.

Silly Roger. Maybe you are they.

[F-16 CHIEF]

Krupski, all I can do is provide scripture that says God cares about you. It shows you are unique, special, and significant. I cannot provide anything addressing other planets, solar systems, or parallel universes. :)

From Mattew chapter 10. Jesus speaking.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

So, all I can say is that he knows how many hairs are on your head. He cares that much about you, so I could care less about the Universe. Apparently, not only did God not create us then abondon us, but he actively knows when a sparrow falls. Sounds like he's pretty in tune with us, on this very planet.

[Paladin]

It's almost like you build this big straw-man called "they"...Maybe you are they.

They are real! You might even vote for one this Fall...

http://www.spacejunk.org/spacejunk/wp-content/images/movie-review/theyliveposter.jpg

[Krupski]

Krupski, all I can do is provide scripture that says God cares about you. It shows you are unique, special, and significant. I cannot provide anything addressing other planets, solar systems, or parallel universes. :)

From Mattew chapter 10. Jesus speaking.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

So, all I can say is that he knows how many hairs are on your head. He cares that much about you, so I could care less about the Universe. Apparently, not only did God not create us then abondon us, but he actively knows when a sparrow falls. Sounds like he's pretty in tune with us, on this very planet.

I do not deny God, and I have no logical reason to deny Jesus Christ. My opinion is always that we (and all other life in the universe) are so small and insignificant compared to God that God cannot possibly care for us. But then I think about that and I realize that I am arrogantly placing a limit on God by assuming He can't care for all.

Why CAN'T God care about every single life in the universe? Why CAN'T God know every hair on my head?

It's difficult to think in terms of how God would think.

If I were God, I would not know or care about every speck in the universe. It would be beyond my ability. But, I am not God, so my inability to understand is really pointless.

The only thing I have a problem with is the Bible itself and religion in general. Religions are man made. The Bible was written by men.

The Bible claims to be the "Word of God", but who made that claim?

The whole thing is still very confusing for me. Working on the assumption that NOTHING is beyond God's ability, then I can say "yeah sure all the stuff written in the Bible is true". But, since it's written by man, the other side of me says "how can man claim to know ANYTHING about God, let alone be arrogant enough to write down what they think they "know"?

Did God actually speak to those people and tell them what to write? I don't know. "They" could say yes, or "they" could say no. But only they actually know, and I cannot take something so unsure and have "faith" in it.

Wow... I'm rambling. Did any of that make sense?

[Krupski]

They are real! You might even vote for one this Fall...

http://www.spacejunk.org/spacejunk/wp-content/images/movie-review/theyliveposter.jpg

We already voted for a bunch of them. And we'll vote for more. Obey. Consume. They live.

[F-16 CHIEF]

Sure. It made sense.

The only thing I was trying to show was according to the Bible, he really cares about us. I have no proof that he isn't concerned with the hair or tentacles on the head of every alien, if present, in this universe, galaxy, or Milky Way.

I just look at it like this. I can't and will never be able to see or know about life elsewhere. All I can know is that Jesus works for me. He's a real, prayer answering God who has improved my life since I decided to accept him. Nothing more, nothing less.

[HDR]

I'm sure it may have stirred up some people.
But in all reality, why can't they just address the video with the same type of calm approach like the guy in the video and express their views in opposition?
Or demonstrate the video inaccurate instead of flying all off the handle and going mentally nuts?
I just don't get it.

The guy in the video could have been reading it; or maybe he was a hired voice paid to read the script. Sounding rational for 8 minutes and 36 seconds won't earn anyone's respect. If it does; then 0bama is wonderful and he sure as hell ain't. Even Pelosi can sound the same as her moon bat shit spews from her mouth.

Not all demagogues rant on like Hitler; supposedly bin laden sounds neutral at least until after you heard the translation. Point is maybe he rehearsed for days to sound informative and neutral; no one knows. So I don't

Hell, I can sound the same as him while I'm insulting someone; so can most people. I can even smile while I am saying the most insulting of things in a pleasant voice.

As the video didn't offer up anything but someone's opinions; notably his opinions so when will he offer up something accurate?

Btw, unless you know of a way there isn't a person on this BBS who can have a debate or a discussion with a video.

So what was this video supposed to accomplish; did you believe listening to this video was supposed to change someone's core values? rotflmao.

[swampdragon]

So what was this video supposed to accomplish; did you believe listening to this video was supposed to change someone's core values? rotflmao.

Believe it or not, it "has" caused some I know to reexamine a few things.
It has caused others to just become even more set in their ways.
It can go a multitude of directions the same as listening to anything else.
A lot of people changed their core values by listening to Jesus too.
See what I mean?
Changing your beliefs "is" possible.
History proves this.