SS109 and M855 223 ammo

[Wild Bill]

What is the difference in type SS109 and M855 223 ammo?

[romak10/63UF]

Both are 62 grain steel core ammo... shooting about 3000fps...
ss109 is military standard m855 is civilian.... but steel core is the best you can get .

ss109 is new military spec
m855 is reman military spec ammo.

Both are the same bullet weight ...

[NewbieAKguy]

If I understand correctly, they're one and the same. SS109 is the NATO designation and M855 is a US designation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

[Schuetzenman]

Both are 62 grain steel core ammo... shooting about 3000fps...
ss109 is military standard m855 is civilian.... but steel core is the best you can get .

ss109 is new military spec
m855 is reman military spec ammo.

Both are the same bullet weight ...

Wrong, wrong, wrong! SS109 is the designation for the bullet in Europe. The SS109 has a 2/3rds lead core, 1/3rd hardened penetraiter in the nose of the projectile. The SS109 as mentioned already is 62 grs. standard weight. It loaded in a cartridge replaced the Vietnam ear 55 gr. FMJ with boat tail. The loaded 55 gr. bullet is the M193 ball round. M855 is the 62 gr. bullet containing loaded ammo that is the standard military cartridge for US forces.. M856 is the tracer loading, not that you asked about that but some free trivia added.

[stinker]

IIRC they're also manufactured by different companies too.
SS109 i think is Sellier & Bellot.
M855 is from the Lake City plant manufactured by Federal and once upon a time by Winchester(?)(i think)

There's also "green tip" 556 nato cross stamped ammo made by neither that comes out of europe and the middle east that's total crap. The internal design/manufacture of the bullet/penetrator is piss poor compared to the U.S. manufactured stuff. Buyer beware on this junk.

[TEN-32]

There's also "green tip" 556 nato cross stamped ammo made by neither that comes out of europe and the middle east that's total crap. The internal design/manufacture of the bullet/penetrator is piss poor compared to the U.S. manufactured stuff. Buyer beware on this junk.

Radway-Green. I have not found it to be poor quality ammo. It is produced in England and is NATO spec.

[stinker]

Stuff i'm talking about in particular i think is from egypt or something like that. There's a video on youtube of some guy "reviewing" lake city m855 and he disects one of the foreign made ones for comparison. It's junk construction from the looks of it.

I would imagine the british made stuff would be better quality than what i'm thinking of.

[Schuetzenman]

Radway-Green. I have not found it to be poor quality ammo. It is produced in England and is NATO spec.

Radway 5.56 that I've experienced is low powered, probably for the wimpy bullpup rife of their's. I do like their bandoleers as they have a snap on the pocket. Strippers of ammo aren't coming out until you want them to and then they are easier to get out than US bandos.

[TEN-32]

Radway 5.56 that I've experienced is low powered, probably for the wimpy bullpup rife of their's. I do like their bandoleers as they have a snap on the pocket. Strippers of ammo aren't coming out until you want them to and then they are easier to get out than US bandos.

I've got a few tins of it socked away from when it was relatively cheap.

[Schuetzenman]

I've got a few tins of it socked away from when it was relatively cheap.

Had any problems with short cycling? At the time I was trying it out, 2000 to 2003 I had only 20" full size rifles. It mostly worked in my stock HBAR but my match gun with the JP gas block it wouldn't cycle for crap. It might do OK in a 16 inch barreled carbine with a short gas system. IN as much as the carbines usually have problem from over gasing the lower power / pressure Radway would probabaly be the ticket.

[cevulirn]

I shot a case or two of it, and never experienced any cycling problems out of my 16" AR.

[deth502]

heres how i understand it.

basically, they are both exactly the same.

the us uses m855.

at the time nato was switching to 223, after the us already had, they were testing loads. the us std load at that time being used was teh m193 (55gn) but the nato determined that the FN loading of a 62gn w/ steel penetrator (ss109) worked better. the us's designation for fn's new ss109 cartridge became the m855.

its just the us's nomenclature for the nato std 5.56 round. they SHOULD be exactly the same, thats the idea behind the nato standardizations.

[deth502]

for some reason, the pdf i tried to attach to that post isint showing??

[deth502]

ok, says its too big, lets try this.......

[abpt1]

the tip is called ss109 or now mil had adopted m855 they are the same....The ppu is the ss109 your talking about its not as good imo as the m855 but its not at all bad ammo...

[TEN-32]

Had any problems with short cycling? At the time I was trying it out, 2000 to 2003 I had only 20" full size rifles. It mostly worked in my stock HBAR but my match gun with the JP gas block it wouldn't cycle for crap. It might do OK in a 16 inch barreled carbine with a short gas system. IN as much as the carbines usually have problem from over gasing the lower power / pressure Radway would probabaly be the ticket.

No. It has been quite a while since I have shot any and when I did it was through my Bushmaster 16" HBAR. I have since acquired 2 20" rifles. Maybe I'll try it in those just out of curiosity.

[abpt1]

Radway green is not bad a bit on the low side yes but never had any issues with the case I shot. I didn't shoot any out of my 20in only Mid and carbine length ......

[circuits]

SS109 is a bullet design by FN.

M855 is a cartridge specification which uses the FN SS109 projectile, and also specifies things like the powder and pressure, min muzzle velocity and max dispersion.

"5.56x45 NATO" is a somewhat looser cartridge specification, which does not REQUIRE the use of the FN SS109 projectile, but most NATO countries do also use the FN SS109 bullet design in their NATO loads.

Only ammunition loaded to M855 specifications, and which is authorized for supply to US Forces is actually M855 - which limits it to Lake City and IMI.

There are many fine cartridges being sold as "SS109" or "M855" which, if submitted to the military for trials, would probably also receive approval as M855, but there are probably as many other loadings out there that claim to be "SS109" or "M855" which would not pass muster.

Unless it's LC or IMI, all you know is that the ammo sold as "SS109" or "M855" probably uses the SS109 bullet design.... probably. To determine other factors you'll need to shoot it, chrono it, and check its grouping to see if meets your needs.

[stinker]

the us std load at that time being used was teh m193 (55gn) but the nato determined that the FN loading of a 62gn w/ steel penetrator (ss109) worked better.

Factor rifle twist into that as well.
The standard m16 was and i believe still is in some cases a 1:12 twist, which will keyhole the crap out of a 62gr bullet.
With newer M4's the twist was lowered to 1:9 which allowed the use of the heavier 62gr round as well as the 55gr.
I think some people might argue about it working "better" too.
Lotta gripes i've read about how the 62gr stuff does'nt shoot through barriers (windshields,doors,etc)and hit the target at a distance behind it worth crap.
The complaint being that it sheds it's jacket on impact and yaw's off target badly.
Have'nt tested it for that effect myself.
It will however go through a 10mm steel plate like it's made of butter though.(this i know :biggrin:)

[Schuetzenman]

Factor rifle twist into that as well.
The standard m16 was and i believe still is in some cases a 1:12 twist, which will keyhole the crap out of a 62gr bullet.
With newer M4's the twist was lowered to 1:9 which allowed the use of the heavier 62gr round as well as the 55gr.
I think some people might argue about it working "better" too.
Lotta gripes i've read about how the 62gr stuff does'nt shoot through barriers (windshields,doors,etc)and hit the target at a distance behind it worth crap.
The complaint being that it sheds it's jacket on impact and yaw's off target badly.
Have'nt tested it for that effect myself.
It will however go through a 10mm steel plate like it's made of butter though.(this i know :biggrin:)

The M16 of Vietnam er was 1 in 12. Once the M16A2 and the 62 gr. M855 loading were launched 1 in 7 is the twist. M4 weapons that is real M4's as in US Gov. issue have 1 in 7 as well. Only Civilian M4orgeries use 1 in 9. 1 in 7 burns out the throat quickly compared to 1 in 9, since very few civilians are going to shoot the M856 tracer round there is no need for the 1 in 7 twist. That said a lot of the civilian weapons have 1 in 7 or use to. My pre 1994 ban Colt HBAR has a 1 in 7 20" barrel. One of these days I need to take a photo and post it of the M855 green tipped projectile and the M856 tracer projectile along with a 147 gr. Nato M80 type .30 call projectile. When you see them side by side you'll understand why 1 in 7 is needed to stabilize that M856 tracer projectile. It is the same length as the .30 cal. NATO bullet.

[Partisan1983]

I've read a lot of suppressor guys prefer 1 in 7 over the other twist rates......FWIW

[arcangel]

A few years back I shot the hell out of some Adcom M855, about 4000 rounds through a Oly 16" A1, and Bushy M4gery A3. It was dirt cheap and gave me 450yds out of those rifles. Man I miss that stuff, I heard bad reports on other threads about said ammo but never had any problems even in the rain/snow. BTW it was made in the UAE. Now I just stick mostly to LC XM193, or XM855 ammo, some Winchester white box 55gr 5.56, and Hornady 55gr BTHP Tap for the S&WM&P 15t.

[O.S.O.K.]

This thread is so good.... that it's getting sticky'd. :D

[Schuetzenman]

Last bit of Trivia on this topic. Anybody know why M855 and the SS109 bullet have green paint on it?




The answer is ............















The green paint on the tip is to let one know at a glance that it is the 62 gr. bullet. Usually only countries that used the 5.56 M193 ball round and then introduced the 62 gr. ammo use the green paint on the bullet. English Radway Green 62 gr. ammo didn't have green paint and as far as I know still doesn't.

[Wild Bill]

Thanks for all the great info. Basically, if I am understanding correctley, M855 is a standard issue. SS109 is a penatrator.

[ammohoe]

ss109 is the bullet/projectile and XM855 is the loaded ammo itself with the ss109 bullet

[NAPOTS]

Correct me if I am wrong but Isn't the rear sight on the M16A2 and M4A1 calibrated for the M193?

At distance you would be shooting high if you were using M855.


I have an A2 with a 1/9 barrel.. Should the sights still be calibrated for M193?

[mfhall]

SS109 is a bullet design by FN.

M855 is a cartridge specification which uses the FN SS109 projectile, and also specifies things like the powder and pressure, min muzzle velocity and max dispersion.

"5.56x45 NATO" is a somewhat looser cartridge specification, which does not REQUIRE the use of the FN SS109 projectile, but most NATO countries do also use the FN SS109 bullet design in their NATO loads.

Only ammunition loaded to M855 specifications, and which is authorized for supply to US Forces is actually M855 - which limits it to Lake City and IMI.

There are many fine cartridges being sold as "SS109" or "M855" which, if submitted to the military for trials, would probably also receive approval as M855, but there are probably as many other loadings out there that claim to be "SS109" or "M855" which would not pass muster.

Unless it's LC or IMI, all you know is that the ammo sold as "SS109" or "M855" probably uses the SS109 bullet design.... probably. To determine other factors you'll need to shoot it, chrono it, and check its grouping to see if meets your needs.

Not quite correct.

SS109 is a cartridge using the original M193 case with a 62 grain penetrator projectile and, crucially, a specially developed two stage propellant. It is NOT only the bullet.

The projectile, designed for penetration at long range , is significantly longer than the 55gr. It's not only heavier, but also less dense as it has a steel core which is lighter than lead (so it's longer for its weight). The round OAL was kept the same as the M193 for interoperability, leaving less case capacity available for the powder. Nevertheless, FN wanted to get the best muzzle velocity they could without excessive pressure. The two-stage propellant is designed to maintain high pressure behind the projectile after it leaves the chamber, and achieves a respectable muzzle velocity (I believe is a couple of hundred fps less than the M193 - Barnes gives 3250 for the M193, and wiki gives 3100 for the SS109) from a smaller powder volume. Given the higher BC from the longer projectile, it's a much better long range round than the M193.

The NATO STANAG (standardization agreement) for the 5.56 x 45 round was written around the SS109 - and mandates performance requirements such as velocities, chamber pressure, gas port pressures, penetration (steel helmet at 600m) and operation in a number of specified weapons (NATO nominated weapons), including the M16A2, and cartridge dimensions.

The M855 meets the STANAG specs - as do a number of European cartidges (the bigger NATO countries all manufacture their own ammo). The only 'real' SS109 is that made by FN. The STANAG does not define the SS109 - it defines NATO 5.56 x 45, which is based on the SS109. While it is correct that it does not require the same projectile as in the SS109, it does specify enough ballistics and penetration requirements to mean that a very similar projectile is required to meet the STANAG.

You can be confident that any cartridge made to meet the STANAG specs will perform very similarly to the M855 or SS109 - but the only cartridges that are accredited to meet the spec are those made for NATO military forces. A list of these, with their head-stamps, and NATO Nominated Weapons is available at http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/wednesdaysessionvArvidsson.pdf

[Schuetzenman]

That's double-base powder. Rockets are two-stage. Single base powders are composed of nitrocellulose, double-base powders are nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. What your post is saying is they wanted a slower burn rate powder to not over pressure the case and to achieve the most speed possible given the 62 gr. bullet. Our M855 round is loaded as far as I know with WC844 which actually is a derivative of WC846. I use the WC844 surplus when I can find it, to load my 62 gr. SS109 type projectiles.

[mfhall]

That's double-base powder. Rockets are two-stage. Single base powders are composed of nitrocellulose, double-base powders are nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. What your cut n paste is saying is they wanted a slower burn rate powder to not over pressure the case and to achieve the most speed possible given the 62 gr. bullet. Our M855 round is loaded as far as I know with WC844 which actually is a derivative of WC846. I use the WC844 surplus when I can find it, to load my 62 gr. SS109 projectiles.


Yes - double base, not two stage, is correct. My bad for using loose language.

[Schuetzenman]

BTW :welcome: to Gunsnet.