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Thread: 12GA FH Shotgun/Rifles-8ga-4ga-585HE-700HE-Etc-

  1. #41
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    I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
    the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
    and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
    on a falling block will have the chamber long
    so I can use both lengths of cases.
    The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
    swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
    long brass has shotgun primers.
    I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed


  2. #42
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    The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
    sides as plastic cases. And there are long
    plastic/paper cases out there, but they
    are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
    fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
    easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
    locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
    screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
    smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
    10ga is 900 gr.Ed

  3. #43
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    New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
    over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
    have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
    reciever built to have more strength and safety.
    Well Savage helped us out.

    Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
    I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
    110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
    and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
    where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
    the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
    Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
    barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

    Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
    hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
    detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
    and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
    as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
    Bob in OR for info.Ed

  4. #44
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    Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
    got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
    Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
    longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
    lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
    front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
    and 700HE long case.

    A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
    jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
    by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
    a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
    He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
    be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
    what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
    and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
    the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed

  5. #45
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    Would have posted back quicker but computer
    hookup down for afew days..
    Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
    an Enfield. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
    the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
    I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
    saboted with locked on base.

    Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
    front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
    rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
    in my 700H 3.25.
    I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
    block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
    Will get pictures posted later..Ed

  6. #46
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    Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
    the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
    cases for where length is limited..

    Using 770 gr saboted slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
    Thes are long saboted slugs due being brass and locked on base.
    Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
    and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
    With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

    For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
    powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
    I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
    speed like full bore slugs get.

    These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
    sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
    real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
    47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

    So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
    65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick.
    And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

    The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
    a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
    I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
    room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
    to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
    when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

  7. #47
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    Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
    built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
    quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
    built by others for sale. And that is absolute
    sexiest bolt handle.
    Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
    to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
    copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
    the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
    I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
    perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
    supply places. ED


  8. #48
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    Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
    caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
    nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
    solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

    1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
    5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
    And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
    malleable enough to shape into jackets,
    without a 20 ton stamping press.

    Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
    about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
    that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
    Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
    The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
    about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
    about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
    We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
    the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
    and ideas too...Ed

  9. #49
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    You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
    with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
    made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
    straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
    gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
    to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
    head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
    It is a really nice looking gun, with great
    craftsmanship.Ed

  10. #50
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    Here is catchup info on our big bore work
    We are doing an 8bore falling block.
    Here is picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
    do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
    block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
    with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
    and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
    The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
    the 4bore brass from. Later hen I do 2bore, breech block will use
    same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
    The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
    from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.
    The other picture shows action with nothing on it
    and shows the breach block with extensions that carry
    the hammer and trigger.

    This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
    built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
    to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed



  11. #51
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    Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
    hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
    69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
    little, in a 12ga wad cup.
    2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
    new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
    petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
    In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
    powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
    I could get over 2800. Ed


  12. #52
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    Here is picture some folks wanted of our
    big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
    In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
    my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

    2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
    are checking loads in, to see how much speed
    can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
    short full bore lead slug, compared to the
    saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
    slug load for more speed..

    Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
    that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
    smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
    the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
    got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
    longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED



  13. #53
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    In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
    gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
    12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
    charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
    about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

    And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
    And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
    than we have today, so our work is a good extension
    of what the early big bore guys did.

    And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed






  14. #54
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    Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
    above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

    Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
    with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
    from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
    Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
    Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
    as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
    Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

    2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
    next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
    sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
    if ever available..

    3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.
    You can see various 8 and 4 bores being shot on youtube..Ed






  15. #55
    Senior Member gpwasr10's Avatar

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    What the fuck is wrong with you...

    LOL
    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
    -Nietzsche

    "Accept the challenges, so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory."
    -George S. Patton

  16. #56
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    Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
    brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
    I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
    some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
    real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
    magnum primers.

    A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
    mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
    solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
    using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
    inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
    for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
    out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
    Mag primer about a foot of flame.

    Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
    a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
    And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
    modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed




  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpwasr10 View Post
    What the fuck is wrong with you...

    LOL
    Hey now, I hope you're poking a little fun with that comment. This thread is a treasure trove of information. Granted it is extremely niche specific in scope but ... it is very rich in information. I look in on this thread as new posts are put in over the years. I hope to see the author contine to add to it as he develops new techniques.

  18. #58
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    Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
    called the Field I think. Looks like some other
    side levers, looks like lever works forward.

    And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
    start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
    up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
    bores only wider.

    I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
    out to the two bore size.
    And a square hole for breach block done
    in that hunk of 4130 steel.

    Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
    my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
    620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
    IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
    Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
    Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
    Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
    only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
    585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
    Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed







    Next below is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
    they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
    speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
    that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
    book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

    Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
    from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
    to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
    Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
    last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

    Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
    reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
    from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
    Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
    do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed





    Last edited by hubel458; 12-06-2011 at 03:15 AM.

  19. #59
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    We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
    using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
    loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

    In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
    slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
    base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
    picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
    About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
    the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

    Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
    750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
    10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
    Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
    and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
    and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
    down to these slugs.

    And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
    a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
    same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
    SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
    and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
    out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
    Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed


  20. #60
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    A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
    First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
    Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
    Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
    Looks like the roll crimp locks against
    the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
    flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
    the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
    plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
    die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
    of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
    in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
    have more room for our slower powders.ED




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