Is your flag up?
Is your flag up?
Sadly I don't have a flag at this new house but, thank you to all who served and lost their lives today and the years that followed.
70 years ago today. Wow! Grew up hearing about it, learned about it in school, remember it every year but didn't stop to think how long it's been. Hard to believe what that day brought about for so many Americans.
There are only about 8,000 Pearl Harbor Survivors left alive out of the 84,000 military personnel stationed on Oahu that day. Since the majority are in their late 80's and early to mid 90's they will all be leaving us before much longer.
Last edited by Richard Simmons; 12-07-2011 at 10:05 AM.
Gunsnet member since 1999
USN 1978-86
BCCI Life Member #2068
•" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " George Orwell
My Flag is always up in nice weather... even at night (it's properly illuminated).Originally Posted by El Duce
Dec 7 1941 - Pearl Harbor
Aug 6 1945 - Hiroshima
Aug 9 1945 - Nagasaki
Payback is a bitch...
Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!
Lt. Taylor shot downed two Japanese planes and Lt. Welch got four. Both ignored orders from 'superior' officers to remain on the ground. Both came back and re-armed under fire so there must have been some heroes who never left the ground.
Taylor and Welch were the first military personnel decorated in WW II.
Wart
Oh........both wore tuxedo pants left over from the night before !
Don't forget the fire bombing of Tokyo....which IIRC caused more deaths than the immediate deaths caused by the nuking of Hiroshima.
70 years ago my uncle was manning the radio on the Argonne straight across the harbor from the Arizona (he passed in 2009) I knew him my whole life and he never mentioned the events of that day
Yup....March 1945.
The real, if there is one single most important reason, for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to insure the bombs 'worked'. As 'D' Day was the day/date uncertain to designate the invasion of Europe, 'X' day was the counter part for the invasion of Japan. X Day planning was well underway and, if the bombs worked, we were going to blast an invasion corridor and the allied troops were going to invade through that corridor. (Radiation, I know, I know but was still gonna happen.)
THANKFULLY the Soviet Union entered the war, went through the Japanese armies in Manchuria in about 15 minutes and Japan surrendered.
Wart
Last edited by Warthogg; 12-07-2011 at 12:17 PM.
Thankfully?!?!?!? You're giving fucking credit to ending the war in the Pacific to the fucking SOVIETS?!?!? We dropped the bomb because the stinking red army declared War on beaten and on the ropes JAPAN with the full intention of sweeping in and grabbing as much real estate as they could. Truman recognized this bullshit for what it was and wanted Japan to immediately surrender to US not the fucking reds. WE (the US) had already paid for that surrender with OUR blood for years and it was an insult for the Soviets to try a land grab that late in the game. But their goal was obvious (well at least to MOST people). The Nukes then forced the surrender (by the Emperor, BTW, not the military high command, those guys wanted to fight to the death and the Emperor overruled them). Can you imagine Japan if they were sliced up into a North and South (like Korea and Vietnam). Nothing but problems for years to come. JEEZ. I have never heard anyone CREDIT the Soviets for ending the war in the Pacific. I'm speechless!
What the FUCK is wrong with you ? Why do you hate this country ? or do you just like the taste of communist cock.
Quote Originally Posted by Warthogg View Post
THANKFULLY the Soviet Union entered the war, went through the Japanese armies in Manchuria in about 15 minutes and Japan surrendered.
Yes...most likely the actions of the Soviet union 'ended' the Pacific war. Certainly not giving the Soviets credit for 'winning' that war as that was done by the US and Australia.Thankfully?!?!?!? You're giving fucking credit to ending the war in the Pacific to the fucking SOVIETS?!?!?
........the stinking red army declared War on beaten and on the ropes JAPAN with the full intention of sweeping in and grabbing as much real estate as they could.
There was an agreement between the allied powers (at both the Yalta and Tehran conferences) the Soviet Union would enter the war against the Empire of Japan within three months of ending the war in Europe.
"Originally Posted by gungorilla View PostThe Nukes then forced the surrender (by the Emperor, BTW, not the military high command, those guys wanted to fight to the death and the Emperor overruled them).
Don't forget the fire bombing of Tokyo....which IIRC caused more deaths than the immediate deaths caused by the nuking of Hiroshima."
Never before had those governing Japan care about casualties......military or civilian.
--------------------------------------
Remember the Soviet Union and Japan were neutral. The Japanese Emperor sent Prince Keno (?) to negotiate with the Soviet Union....to employ the Soviets to intercede of behalf of Japan for better terms of surrender. Stalin and Molotov screwed the Prince around promising little and committing to nothing.
Mean while, the Soviets were transitioning their Armies from from the European war to attack Japan. Of course Stalin broke the treaty of neutrality with Japan as soon as he was ready to attack.
What Stalin/Soviet Union/Russia wanted was unrestricted access to ice free Pacific ports. Namely Stalin wanted the Sakhalin and Kurile Islands (I have been there but from the seaward sides....hehehehe). Oh he would gladly have taken Hokkaido but was satisfied with Sakhalin and the Kuriles.
Decent time line:
August 6, the Americans dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.
Late in the evening of August 8, in accordance with Yalta agreements but in violation of the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan.
Soon after midnight on August 9, the Soviets invaded the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo.
Later that day (August 9) the US dropped a nuke on Nagasaki.
Between August 9 and August 14 the Japanese successfully negotiated to keep the Emperor.
Hirohito gave a recorded radio address to the nation on August 15. In the radio address, he announced the surrender of Japan. (Though the word 'surrender' was never mentioned....IIRC.) The first time the people of Japan had ever heard their Emperor's voice.
Wart
Last edited by Warthogg; 12-07-2011 at 05:50 PM.
Kindly see my post above.What the FUCK is wrong with you ? Why do you hate this country ? or do you just like the taste of communist cock.
Wart
My issue is not with the timeline. You got it right. But interpretation is what I'm squawking about. Stalin was a shit. He refused repeated Allied requests to enter the war in the Pacific. Sure he tied up about 1.2 million Japanese troops on the Continent but them and the Red army were just sitting around for 3 1/2 years throwing rocks at each other. Stalin waited LITERALLY until the last damned minute. August 9th, is exactly THREE MONTHS after the end of Germany. If he had waited 12 hours, he would have been in breach of his agreement at Yalta. By that time the Americans didn't need their help. My uncle was an officer in the Pacific. Most of the Enlisted men were just happy to hear about the END of the war, regardless. Senior officers who were privy to the big picture strategies were pretty PISSED OFF that the Damned Ruskies waited until it was practically OVER and started their steamroller landgrab. I remember hearing my uncle saying that the Japanese Continental forces at first didn't understand or got the Empreror's surrender transmission, since he spoke in archaic format and never actually used the term 'surrender'. He was actually happy that the Japanese forces fought the Red Army and inflicted some casualties on them. Of course his viewpoint was colored in part, by being in the Army during the KOREAN war and during the Cold War. Russia was NOT our ally. They were taking advantage of the situation and the loss of life that AMERICA pretty much bore the brunt of. (Now you can say that We did the same to them on the Eastern Front and Berlin), but that's irrelevant. The Russians were only another nail in the coffin in Imperial Japan. The victory RIGHTFULLY belonged to US! Not the Russians! That is what I had issue with!
From my post:
Yes...most likely the actions of the Soviet union 'ended' the Pacific war. Certainly not giving the Soviets credit for 'winning' that war as that was done by the US and Australia.The victory RIGHTFULLY belonged to US! Not the Russians! That is what I had issue with
I gave (and give) no credit to the Soviets for our victory over Japan only for hastening the end the war. (Japan could have only conducted modern warfare until about the end of 1945 but many, many more allied lives would have been lost.)
Once Japan realized the Soviet Union would not broker a surrender under better terms, and once Stalin attacked in Manchuria thus breaking the neutrality pact, Hirohito knew it was over and Japan surrendered*.
Stalin did keep his agreement and Stalin got his islands. Dude wanted the Islands because he thought his big time port - Vladivostok - could be blocked from those Islands.
Wart
Edited to add:
*The allies had also signaled to Japan the Emperor could remain.
Last edited by Warthogg; 12-08-2011 at 03:45 PM.
Stalin also wanted the Japanese nuclear program that was located in N Korea the islands were just a bonus
Warthogg has this dead wrong. The Soviet involvement did much less to hasten the end of the war than did the Nagasaki detonation, which forced the emperor to lead his divided war cabinet to surrender.
Keep in mind, the Soviets also continued their land grab long after the armistice, raped and pillaged indiscriminately, then systematically looted everything of value that could be moved from the occupied territories. True heroes.
Nope I have this correct.
The fire bombings of cities such as Dresden and Tokyo and A-bombs dropped on Hiroshima And Tokyo were supposed to break the will of the German and Japanese people. DID NOT HAPPEN.
Bomber Harris tried this stupid schitt in Germany.......bombing cities....did little to no good. Then the effort was to destroy ball bearing factories. Those were simply moved underground. Finally, FINALLY the allies realized taking out the oil supply was what would work but that was near the end of the war. Finally we put enough assets on Ploesti and rail; transportation to starve the Germans of oil. That worked.
Wart
I'll finish later....someone wants to buy me lunch !!
I see, loosing a weapon on Japan that wrought a level of destruction the world had never seen and few could have even imagined didn't break the Japanese will, it was the long-expected invasion of a Japanese-occupied foreign territory hundreds of miles away across the Sea of Japan that broke their fighting spirit and made them sue for peace. Makes perfect sense.
Honestly, read up at least the tiniest little bit on what was going on at the highest levels of the Japanese government in August '45 before you voice any more of your pontifications on this.
Last edited by Sergis Bauer; 12-08-2011 at 02:48 PM.
BACK:
The Soviets also ended the war against Germany. The dictators.........Hitler and Stalin and Tojo/Hirohito could take the casualties while the leaders of democracies could not. IIRC, the Soviets took more casualties at Leningrad than the US did in the entire war.
Hitler didn't care about Dresden, Stalin didn't care about Leningrad and Tojo/Hirohito didn't care about the fire bombing of Tokyo or the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Soviets attacking in Manchuria thus breaking the Japanese-Soviet Union neutrality pact and Stalin and Molotov's refusal to intercede for better terms of surrender Hirohito did care about. Faced with only about 4 months resources to wage a modern war, Japan surrendered. (Also finally we had signaled Japan could retain the Emperor.....very, very important to ending the war. I don't know that anyone other than the Emperor could have stopped the fighting.)
Quote Originally Posted by Warthogg View Post
Nope I have this correct.
The fire bombings of cities such as Dresden and Tokyo and A-bombs dropped on Hiroshima And Tokyo [I ASSUME YOU MEAN NAGASAKI] were supposed to break the will of the German and Japanese people. DID NOT HAPPEN.
That is correct. (And Tokyo and Dresden had suffered even more casualties than did Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)
Wart
Last edited by Warthogg; 12-08-2011 at 03:37 PM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks