ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations.

**Cypher** · 12-08-2011, 08:28 AM

This is infuriating. So when are these people going to be charged and imprisoned for what they did?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...n-regulations/

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

More Fast and Furious coverage:
Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico
Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

The Gun Dealers' Quandary

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.

Read the email

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

Read the email

ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

The "Demand Letter 3" Debate

The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.

Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."

Reaction

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."

On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.

"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.

**samiam** · 12-08-2011, 10:13 AM

and the DEA is in the money laundering business, if both agencies were eliminated it would save the taxpayers over $3.5 billion per year, just a drop in the bucket but a good start

**sevlex** · 12-08-2011, 10:35 AM

Eh, not so much.

**mriddick** · 12-08-2011, 10:37 AM

This has been said since the beginning...

**Focused Gunfire** · 12-08-2011, 11:07 AM

We have been saying this the whole time. If this was any other administration, this would have been a huge scandal. Instead the MSM labels this the most ethical administration ever.

**Schuetzenman** · 12-08-2011, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by mriddick

This has been said since the beginning...

I certainly have been saying it was the case.

**mriddick** · 12-08-2011, 07:53 PM

I have had anti gun types try and use F&F as a reason for more gun control to me, IMO their logic is seriously lacking.

**O.S.O.K.** · 12-08-2011, 08:13 PM

I think that its time for a tea party ralley on the DC Mall demanding the removal of holder and the impeachment of obummer. Seriously. And perhaps this time we go armed.

**Solidus-snake** · 12-09-2011, 04:37 AM

Ditto

**Ruskiegunlover** · 12-09-2011, 07:11 AM

Ditto DITTO. I'll be honest, when I read about fast and furious I get disturbingly angry. I won't go further than that though. This is the internet after all, and we are all free and our rights to free speech are totally clear and open right?

**LAGC** · 12-09-2011, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by mriddick

I have had anti gun types try and use F&F as a reason for more gun control to me, IMO their logic is seriously lacking.

Well, I think their main argument is: "Look, see, Mexican cartels really ARE buying guns from the U.S. just like the Mexican president and Obama said! We need more enforcement of U.S. gun laws, not less, and close the gun-show loophole too!"

While the pro-gun side may see this F&F business as a reason to dismantle the ATF, the antis just see it as proof that the ATF needs to be made stronger.

**mriddick** · 12-09-2011, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by LAGC

Well, I think their main argument is: "Look, see, Mexican cartels really ARE buying guns from the U.S. just like the Mexican president and Obama said! We need more enforcement of U.S. gun laws, not less, and close the gun-show loophole too!"

While the pro-gun side may see this F&F business as a reason to dismantle the ATF, the antis just see it as proof that the ATF needs to be made stronger.

None of the gun sales would of went through had F&F not been in place, the fact the gov't had to let them walk shows that.

It would be like a nuclear reactor melting down because the Dept of Energy decided to remove the safeguards and run the reactor with no coolant. Only an idiot would argue as a result of the meltdown we would need a stronger Dept of Energy.

**LAGC** · 12-09-2011, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by mriddick

None of the gun sales would of went through had F&F not been in place, the fact the gov't had to let them walk shows that.

It would be like a nuclear reactor melting down because the Dept of Energy decided to remove the safeguards and run the reactor with no coolant. Only an idiot would argue as a result of the meltdown we would need a stronger Dept of Energy.

I agree, but it lends credence to the fact that people are TRYING. And there is nothing stopping these same people from buying private-party if those FFLs had turned them down like they are supposed to.

Of course, most of Mexico's military-grade weapons come from elsewhere, since you have to go through an FFL to transfer select-fire/full-auto, so they are still blowing the problem way out of proportion.

**mriddick** · 12-09-2011, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by LAGC

I agree, but it lends credence to the fact that people are TRYING. And there is nothing stopping these same people from buying private-party if those FFLs had turned them down like they are supposed to.

Of course, most of Mexico's military-grade weapons come from elsewhere, since you have to go through an FFL to transfer select-fire/full-auto, so they are still blowing the problem way out of proportion.

Are they really trying to get them this way or were they simply employed by the BATF to do it this way, in the easiest way possible. You and I both know the weapon of choice for any drug cartel would be military grade FA's, those are simply not available through civilian channels in the US. They do get alot of them through military connections in Mexico though. I've said from the beginning F&F was a cover from the mess of our gov't suppling firearms to the mexican gov't who inturn give them to soldiers who sell them to the cartels.

IMO F&F supplied an inferior product the cartels probably really weren't interested in all that much but it was made so easy and cheap by the BATF they took them anyway.

To read up on F&F and take from it that more gov't intervention is needed just shows how screwed up your liberal friends are. F&F was not pushed on the cartel side, it was a product of the BATF and sold to the cartels, they might of wanted something else but is this came so easy and cheap how could they not take it?

**Cypher** · 12-09-2011, 10:56 AM

When the whole bull crap about US guns going to the cartels started I remember reading an interesting fact that a very small percentage of the guns they use actually came from the US so it seems pretty clear that their primary source is not the US civilian market in any way shape or form.

Their grasping at straws to add more gun control to the books. It's pretty pathetic that they even think using another countries problems to take away rights of US citizens is going to fly.

**O.S.O.K.** · 12-09-2011, 11:07 AM

This is bad enough - bad enough to warrant impeachment and removal for the vacationer in cheif but think about this: if this shit is going on - and we found out about it by accident and because of some patriotic agents.... what the hell else is going on?

This administration obviously has no qualms about lying, cheating and defrauding the American public.

**Warthogg** · 12-09-2011, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cypher

When the whole bull crap about US guns going to the cartels started I remember reading an interesting fact that a very small percentage of the guns they use actually came from the US so it seems pretty clear that their primary source is not the US civilian market in any way shape or form.

Their grasping at straws to add more gun control to the books. It's pretty pathetic that they even think using another countries problems to take away rights of US citizens is going to fly.

Yup

Wart