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Thread: when asked if they would shoot americans, Ntl guard unit stands down.

  1. #21
    Team GunsNet Bronze 07/2011 T2K's Avatar

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    I like the principle of the story.

    I doubt very much that it actually happened.

    Three companies assembled at one armory? In the SC Army National Guard, each armory supports one company. Having all three companies in one place would be a big exercise and would be held annually in the field somewhere at the NTC.

    The Battalion CO was standing in front of them? So, they were in parade formation / order, with rifles? And filling out a questionaire...standing up? Or they were in formation in a big classroom at desks, with rifles issue?

    The guy is in the county jail? Who arrested and detained him, the local sheriff? On what charge?

    Only 6 officers present (the CO, three CPT's and two LT's) for three companies of troops assembled? There would be at least 20 there, since the BN CO will have staff officers with him, plus the platoon leaders, and company XO's.

    I call bullshit, big time.

  2. #22
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    But..but...people are evil and military people are the most evil and we all know the gov't is out to kill us all...

  3. #23
    Senior Member Kadmos's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post
    But..but...people are evil and military people are the most evil and we all know the gov't is out to kill us all...
    I don't think that's the case at all. Frankly, I can understand why the military would want the soldiers opinion on the subject. Posse Comitatus act aside, there are times where it may be necessary to use military force against the people, and in situations where most people would think such an act was justified.

    I don't think the government is "out to get us", and I do see why the military would want to know how far soldiers would go, and I also see that some soldiers wouldn't want to put down such information on a form

  4. #24
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmos View Post
    I don't think that's the case at all. Frankly, I can understand why the military would want the soldiers opinion on the subject. Posse Comitatus act aside, there are times where it may be necessary to use military force against the people, and in situations where most people would think such an act was justified.

    I don't think the government is "out to get us", and I do see why the military would want to know how far soldiers would go, and I also see that some soldiers wouldn't want to put down such information on a form
    I see the color purple is lost on you... So in one thread you're saying our troops could be like the nazis then in another say it's not at all like that. I guess you can't lose taking both sides

  5. #25
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetzenman View Post
    They aren't being asked to kill foreign troops on our soil or on foreign soil. They aren't being asked if they will patrol streets after a natural disaster. They are being asked if they will shoot and kill US Citizens. If the story is true I applaude them. Just think if Nazi troops would of refused to shoot Jews in 1939 how many of the 6 million murder vicitms of the German State would still be alive today.
    The penalty for disobeying an order in nazi Germany was death. Not a court-martial... not a civil trial... just a thorough beating at Prinz-Albrecht-Strasse 8 followed by death by hanging.

    All Bam-bam has to do is modify the UCMJ to make any offense punishable by death....
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  6. #26
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmos View Post
    It doesn't take any special depraved spirit to become like a Nazi, it's actually really easy
    School bullies prove that almost any person can "turn bad". And given free reign to "be bad" as the nazis were... it's no surprise that they did what they did.

    Usually, the victim(s) are in a lose-lose situation. If the victims resist and fight back, the force used on them is ramped up. If they cower and beg for mercy, this elicits a feeling of disgust in the bully (or nazi) and again the force is ramped up.
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  7. #27
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmos View Post
    I don't think that's the case at all. Frankly, I can understand why the military would want the soldiers opinion on the subject. Posse Comitatus act aside, there are times where it may be necessary to use military force against the people, and in situations where most people would think such an act was justified.

    I don't think the government is "out to get us", and I do see why the military would want to know how far soldiers would go, and I also see that some soldiers wouldn't want to put down such information on a form
    FYI purple text is the De-facto standard here to signify "sarcasm".
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  8. #28
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2012 Warthogg's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmos View Post
    It doesn't take any special depraved spirit to become like a Nazi, it's actually really easy...
    If only we would understand......


    Wart

  9. #29
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2012 Warthogg's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergis Bauer View Post
    If you haven't already, read the book Ordinary Men. It's an eye opener.
    This ??

    Book review: Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland by Christopher R. Browning

    Although our world has seen many events occur which defy explanation and simply boggle the mind, thus far none has matched the Holocaust in the intensity and sheer damage that it caused the world and more significantly the Jewish population of Europe. Yet, to this day who should be blamed for the Holocaust has still been an open question, yes it was Hitler's plan and original idea, but was he the only one behind it?

    All along it was the idea that the Jews had been the downfall of the German empire and something has to be done about them. A large factor in these ideas was the use of Einzatsgruppen and Police detachments behind the Army Front in clearing out and containing the Jewish populations in Ghettos or simply to eliminate them. Who these men were and what they represented is what Christopher R. Browning discusses in his book "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland."

    We are shown what kind of men comprised this unit, Party members, members of the SS, which social class did they come from, working or privileged upper higher classes, and so on. The first killings are examined and how individuals reacted to them. None of the members of Police Battalion 101 had any idea that their first shooting of unarmed Jews was to take place, thus when asked by the commander of the Battalion those who wish to step out can, and they will be assigned other jobs, at first one man stepped out and was immediately berated by his commanding officer. After Trapp (the commander of the battalion) "had taken Schmike (the man who stepped out) under his protection, some ten or twelve other men stepped forward as well. They turned in their rifles and were told to await a further assignment from the major (pg. 57)."

    Later on even more men would step out or at least be asked to be excused after they had shot five or six people while others simply milled about at different junctures of the area trying to avoid being asked to be part of the shooting squads. No one was punished, which goes to show that the Germans did have a choice in taking part in the Holocaust or being left out.

    Another large part of the job that Police Battalion 101 did was to have Jews board trains which would take them to concentration or death camps, they would have tens of thousands sent to their death. Eventually as the battalion partook in a larger number of operations to round up and execute Jews they would grow more and more accustomed to it and at times would even joke about it.

    The last job that the Police Battalion had was to form hunting units to hunt down Jews who had run away and hid in the forests or elsewhere in the country side, these actions would have hundreds of casualties on the Jewish side while rarely would the Germans encounter opposition from Partisan type units. A helping hand was given to the Germans in their executions by groups like Ukrainians and Latvians, they would get thoroughly drunk and start to shoot carelessly and widely usually wounding the Jews and then shooting more and more victims on top of those wounded without administering any `mercy shots.'

    Although the Poles were not used in these kinds of units many did help the Germans by showing them where Jews were hiding out, the Germans would write how they often `betrayed' the Jews to them, whereas I doubt the Poles thought the same way about the Jews. While `betraying' might be used when talking of a friend or family member, the Poles saw Jews as neither. After we are taken through all the actions of Police Battalion 101 we are presented with the question of what could have made them do something like this?

    Some would say it was the battlefield position they found themselves in, this is incorrect. Those who participated saw mostly no battlefield experience, they were mostly older men who would not see service in the German Wehrmacht and were used for rear area security. The book is an excellent introduction and analysis to help us understand why those in the Police Battalion took actions against the Jews, and at the same time see that those who did not want to or could not, for whatever reason, were not punished but adopted for other work.


    http://kunikovsreviews.blogspot.com/...battalion.html
    Last edited by Warthogg; 12-09-2011 at 01:24 PM.

  10. #30
    I would hope our men would stand down. I know I would. But I dont think the y will use our military. They will call in the blue helmets and say it is a peace keeping mission.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Cypher's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    School bullies prove that almost any person can "turn bad". And given free reign to "be bad" as the nazis were... it's no surprise that they did what they did.

    Usually, the victim(s) are in a lose-lose situation. If the victims resist and fight back, the force used on them is ramped up. If they cower and beg for mercy, this elicits a feeling of disgust in the bully (or nazi) and again the force is ramped up.
    I hope we never see wide sread lawlessness in the United States, look at how people acted after Katrina or other situations where they have little or no fear of facing legual consequences for their actions.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Kadmos's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post
    I see the color purple is lost on you... So in one thread you're saying our troops could be like the nazis then in another say it's not at all like that. I guess you can't lose taking both sides
    I get that it was semi sarcastic. What I'm saying is there are legitimate reasons the government would want the soldiers opinions on this issue.

    Secondly, I'm saying "I was just following orders" is actually a rather for lack oof a better word, good, excuse. People will tend to do what a person in a position of authority tells them to do. And they will tend to do it to a really sickening horrific degree of barbarity.

    It doesn't make it right, but in reality I'm not convinced it really makes them "bad" people, it's just something that happens to be part of the psychology of humans. An otherwise moral person will sit there and push a button giving a "shock" to another person while they scream, complain of heart troubles and even after they have fallen silent simply because a doctor in a psychology test said "please continue".

    The sad fact is that while we all say "I would never do that", mostly so we can live with ourselves and sleep at night, the truth is any one of us could very easily be manipulated into horrific acts simply because a figure of authority told us to.

    That doesn't mean there are no lines that people won't cross, but we see again and again that people certainly will cross far over the lines of what any reasonable person would call decency before they hit the line that actually makes them stop.

  13. #33
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2012 Warthogg's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcell View Post
    I would hope our men would stand down. I know I would. But I dont think the y will use our military. They will call in the blue helmets and say it is a peace keeping mission.
    MUST either use or neutralize our military. Using is the more likely IMO.


    Wart

  14. #34
    Team GunsNet Platinum 02/2015 davepool's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmos View Post
    Whenever someone tells me how wonderful human nature is I tend to think of the Milgram experiment. The vast bulk of people willing to essentially electric shock helpless strangers to death because an authourity figure slightly nudged them to continue.

    We all like to think we are "free thinkers", the sad fact is, to put it simply, we aren't.

    It doesn't take any special depraved spirit to become like a Nazi, it's actually really easy


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
    I read this book in 1975 (Obedience to authority) when i was an NCO in the marines. At that time in my life, based experiences i had in the military and the experiences of my fellow marines, I had begun to question myself as to whether or not i would follow an immoral order from a commanding officer.

    This book helped me understand the processes that change a person who is normally a kind and empathetic being into a monster who would commit unspeakable acts. I decided to never let another man determine the direction of my moral compass.

    It should be required reading for everyone in the military.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Kadmos's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by davepool View Post
    I decided to never let another man determine the direction of my moral compass.
    They don't, they just adjust the declination a little bit and send you in the new right direction.


    Muslims are trying to kill us all, dirty bombs in daycare's. We know a plot is happening, it's in Dearborn, we're sending your unit to find the cell. Close off 20 blocks and start going door to door, asking questions, ask if they will let you inside to poke around. If they are true Americans with nothing to hide then why wouldn't they let you poke around, kids are going to die after all, we are sure of this, just not sure when and not sure where.

    Found a guy, seems suspicious, question him, we know he knows something, he won't answer, threaten his family, put him in a "stress position", it won't do permanent damage, water boarding isn't really drowning it just feels like it, clock is ticking, if we don't get the info your fellow soldiers are going to die....

  16. #36
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    There are things called lawful orders, like fill out this survey and keep control of your weapon. And there are unlawful orders like shoot civilians, that you not only don't follow but its your duty not to follow.

    Younger troops may have a blurred vision of where that line is. That is why we need and for the most part have good NCOs and senior NCOs.

  17. #37
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warthogg View Post
    Article 31 of the UCMJ.


    Wart
    Is that the one that states that a soldier can refuse an illegal order?

    Basically, its my understanding that this is understood - that soldiers given illegal orders do not have to obey them.

    So, yeah, why ask other than for some nefarious reason?
    ~Nemo me impune lacessit~




  18. #38
    Senior Member Kadmos's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    Is that the one that states that a soldier can refuse an illegal order?
    No, that one is about self incrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    Basically, its my understanding that this is understood - that soldiers given illegal orders do not have to obey them.
    That's a whole other shitstorm. Soldiers are required to obey lawful orders and have a duty not to obey unlawful orders. It puts them in a rather tough spot.

    Generally, failure to obey an order can go right up to an Article 94 (Mutiny) which can carry the death penalty.

    And of course a lot of times it's not so clear if the order was lawful or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    So, yeah, why ask other than for some nefarious reason?
    Just to gauge the feelings of the troops. National guard are in an interesting position, they often have to deploy on US soil, often as part of a relief force for disasters, but also as an armed force against civil unrest.

    So it's good to know a units thoughts, are they ok guarding a supply depot and handing out water to civilians, but are they unwilling to shoot tear gas into a crowd of "Occupy" protesters...and if things really get bad are they willing to shoot live ammo into the crowd?

  19. #39
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    The national guard is a state entity. They can be activated by the Feds, which makes them a federal entity.

    Its not really a gray area, but it is confusing. If I am on federal activation I am bound by the same rules and regulations as the Active Duty. If its a state activation by the governor I am bound by the laws of the state, so in that case could be used in a police action without breaking the law. But, if that were to happen no federal money or equipment can be used.

    It gets a lot more confusing when you dig deep into it. And the rules get a little blurred. Like I am federal activated, my commander is not. Therefore I fall under the UCMJ and he does not. He cant give me orders technically. Of course I do what he tells me to do, but he hasnt ever told me to shoot some civilians.

  20. #40
    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    "Can we at least shoot the hippies Sarge?"

    "No Private, they're Americans too, much as I hate to admit it."
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