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Thread: Is Congress and the President out to kill social security?

  1. #21
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    How is it an entitlement program when the government takes your money and then gives you some of it back? Hmm?

    Welfare is a so-called "entitlement" program. Social Security is supposed to be a mandatory retirement program.

    You have insulted and denigrated people for expecting to get some of their money back many times in other threads. Your views on this are well known. So get off the comprehension BS.

    Go ahead and reply to this - I won't respond - as it's taking the thread OT...
    You really have no clue what an entitlement program is do you. That fact you seem so entitled to it should be a clue but I guess not... LOL My stance as always been if we want it (if we are entitled to it you could say ) then we need to fund it, this bill basically defunds SS faster then before.

    Also note it's quite popular in liberal circles to claim SS is not an entitlement, as far as I know only liberals push this line. Regardless the object of everything I've stated is not to argue over the semantics of one word but to say if we want it (and it seems you do) then lets pay for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha_Male View Post
    Your right my parents saved their money, invested and never lived beyond their means. Luckily they passed on that wisdom to me. I started a savings account when I was 15 that I still put a few bucks in every paycheck and opened up my 401k when I was 19. My 401k isn't looking to hot right now but the great thing is I'm still young and it's just one of many things that keep me sleeping easy.
    You're not going to be given the choice of not paying in and not getting SS or paying in and getting it as you're parents have, the basic plan for those under 55 is to keep them paying in and reduce their pay outs (50-70% of what your grandparents might expect to get). You'll never get the voters to give up on SS, that is just a sad fact. This is basically a conservative site and you'll be taken to task for even suggesting anyone on or near collecting it take less much less give it up all together... As I said above I think the only option we have is demand they fund it fully, your generation is more at risk to the unfunding of the program then anything else IMO at this point...
    Last edited by mriddick; 12-19-2011 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Alpha_Male's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post
    You really have no clue what an entitlement program is do you. That fact you seem so entitled to it should be a clue but I guess not... LOL My stance as always been if we want it (if we are entitled to it you could say ) then we need to fund it, this bill basically defunds SS faster then before.

    Also note it's quite popular in liberal circles to claim SS is not an entitlement, as far as I know only liberals push this line. Regardless the object of everything I've stated is not to argue over the semantics of one word but to say if we want it (and it seems you do) then lets pay for it.


    You're not going to be given the choice of not paying in and not getting SS or paying in and getting it as you're parents have, the basic plan for those under 55 is to keep them paying in and reduce their pay outs (50-70% of what your grandparents might expect to get). You'll never get the voters to give up on SS, that is just a sad fact. This is basically a conservative site and you'll be taken to task for even suggesting anyone on or near collecting it take less much less give it up all together... As I said above I think the only option we have is demand they fund it fully, your generation is more at risk to the unfunding of the program then anything else IMO at this point...
    I honestly don't really care if I get anything because I don't plan on other people paying for me on anything. I plan on having a nice fat savings, a room full of guns and ammo to keep me busy, some whiskey to keep my belly warm and a good woman to keep me company. I suppose I could get a fancy car, lots of credit card debt and all the electrical gadgets other 25 year olds get but I have bigger plans.

    My parents are 2 years away from paying off their house and they cant wait. My father has been looking at some land outside the city and they are planning their dream house. They joke quite often how the house will be split in two containing a "his and hers" area lol. More than likely, if I know my father well, he'll get some cattle, chickens, lot's of corn, green chilies, couple of horses and a 1972 chevelle SS with a 502 big block. My mom says she want's to keep her job cause that's where all her friends are lol. Oh well they've earned it.

    Oh, paying for it without a cent from the government.

  3. #23
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    My parents paid into the system their entire lives, raised 3 boys, and never asked for help from the government. They have relied on family for small things like fixing the car when money was tight but that's it. But when they needed the help from the government recently for food stamps they got turned down. My dad is working 2 jobs at whatever hours and pay he can get, that sumbitch just loves to work. And doesn't know what he'd do without it. My mom is now on disability but doesn't get anything for it, and her diabetes is kicking her ass. Her doctor was kind enough to supply her with insulin sample kits as he could. But on the good note my mom won her case for her disability and can now get some of her retirement that she paid into when she worked in retail. But my bitch brothers are trying to milk that from them, with the excuse of his children. And my other brother is having a kid soon too. My mom mentioned to me that she wanted to send me some for the holidays, I told her it would give me better joy knowing they use it for their bills and things they need. I also told her that my brothers are grown ass adults and need to figure their issues out themselves. They've dumped thousands into them the last 2 years, and I'm proud that I don't owe them any money that they won't ever see from the other 2. When someone owes the government money they want it now, when the government owes you they make you wait as long as possible and usually don't pay all up front. SS in our current financial state is a dream quickly fading. Most of us won't see any of it, bu still have to pay until the end. Those that do get to see it will only see a sad amount of what is actually due to them. Goodbye American dream.

  4. #24
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Guys, SS will never go "broke" it will go to a 50% payout though but regardless it's not going away. What the President and Congress are doing right now will get us to that 50% spot much sooner.
    Last edited by mriddick; 12-19-2011 at 10:19 AM.

  5. #25
    Gunsnet Contributor 02/14

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    Obummer has already said....

    that retired people are a drain on society and should go away, aka die. Social Security is a hot button issue and it is an election year. There are many more places where money can come from but the politicians need to scare the sheeple so they can get their votes.....chris3

  6. #26
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    I'm sort of amazed at how little this is being linked to social security in the press. If I was to bet I'd say less then 10% of the people realize the payroll tax cut is actually a cut in SS tax, fewer would of figured out what it does to the system in terms of wrecking it. If the idea is to get SS to go into insolvency as fast as we can the mighty 0 is doing a pretty good job at it and it seems he wants it so bad he's willing to give in on the pipeline deal to do it.

    What I don't get is if a Republican like Ryan starts suggesting entitlements need reform it is instantly labeled in the press and by groups like AARP as killing social security, yet this plan really does go a long way in killing it and they are silent. I got to wonder where the press and groups like AARP are in all this.

  7. #27
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    To the OT, it is quite obvious to me that obummer is doing everything he can to bring this country down - to create disontent and pit the "classes" against each other. All the while claiming that he's doing the opposite of course.

    It is so obvious that I simply can't believe that his so-called "approval" rating is what it is purported to be.

    Yes, I think the "downgrading" of SS is inevitable because there simply isn't going to be enough money as it's been stolen to fund basically, vote-getting BS over the years. They will have no choice but to reduce payouts.

    And I want to say to Alpha - good for your folks. I am also working to do the same and should be able to acheive that given any kind of normal economic condition. But I've got 10 more years at least to go.

    I assume that since your folks have paid in all of their working lives, they won't send the checks back when they arrive... nor should they! They paid a lot more into the program than they will ever receive back.

    And again, my point is that SS is not some kind of entitlement/hand-out. It is a socialized retirement plan funded by the recipients - or it is supposed to be. There are no entitlements outlined in the Constitution. That should have been a big damned clue for the idiots that perpetrated all of this "entitlement" BS in the first place.

    My guess as to what will happen to the program is that it will include some kind of means testing and anybody with something like $30K/annual income and above will be removed from the program. This sucks IMHO but I can't see anything else happening.

    They have been very consistent in rewarding people for not preparing - for making the wrong decisions - covering their asses.
    Last edited by O.S.O.K.; 12-19-2011 at 10:40 AM.
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  8. #28
    Team GunsNet Bronze 07/2011 T2K's Avatar

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    I've worked outside the US since I was 25, and haven't paid anything into SS since that time. And I could care less, I expect nothing from the government (even though I still have to pay US income taxes even though I don't live there) and will take care of myself and my family.

    Question: Do you really only get out what you put in? Once you are fully vested, and if you live to say, 100, you still get your checks right? Or am I wrong?

    Sorry, I frankly know and care little about how SS works, I just see that it's one of the top three things that the Federal Gov't spends money on.

  9. #29
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T2K View Post
    I've worked outside the US since I was 25, and haven't paid anything into SS since that time. And I could care less, I expect nothing from the government (even though I still have to pay US income taxes even though I don't live there) and will take care of myself and my family.

    Question: Do you really only get out what you put in? Once you are fully vested, and if you live to say, 100, you still get your checks right? Or am I wrong?

    Sorry, I frankly know and care little about how SS works, I just see that it's one of the top three things that the Federal Gov't spends money on.
    Top 3? You better throw medicare in the mix too

    Benefits are unlimited and contrary to what's posted you don't have to actually contribute yourself to collect it (widows, disabled and orphan benefits) not to mention fully 1/3rd of people collecting it are under 65. One of the problems with all this is most like to look at SS only on a individual basis and not as an entire system. As far not expecting nothing from it, that's like saying I don't vote so I don't have to worry about who's President Entitlements (or whatever you want call them) like SS and medicare are going to crash everything if something isn't done.

  10. #30
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post
    Top 3? You better throw medicare in the mix too

    Benefits are unlimited and contrary to what's posted you don't have to actually contribute yourself to collect it (widows, disabled and orphan benefits) not to mention fully 1/3rd of people collecting it are under 65. One of the problems with all this is most like to look at SS only on a individual basis and not as an entire system. As far not expecting nothing from it, that's like saying I don't vote so I don't have to worry about who's President Entitlements (or whatever you want call them) like SS and medicare are going to crash everything if something isn't done.
    Most people don't get out what they put in - on average. Yes, if you live long, you can eventually collect more than what you deposited over the years. If the sytem were left alone - the money left untouched and none of it given to people that didn't contribute (another big reason it's failing) then it would actually work just fine.
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  11. #31
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2012 Warthogg's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post

    What I don't get is if a Republican like Ryan starts suggesting entitlements need reform it is instantly labeled in the press and by groups like AARP as killing social security, yet this plan really does go a long way in killing it and they are silent.

    I got to wonder where the press and groups like AARP are in all this.
    To the left. AARP is a paid organization for the Dimocrats not unlike ACORN.


    Wart

  12. #32
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    Most people don't get out what they put in - on average. Yes, if you live long, you can eventually collect more than what you deposited over the years. If the sytem were left alone - the money left untouched and none of it given to people that didn't contribute (another big reason it's failing) then it would actually work just fine.
    I understand you really want this all to work, you really want the math to work but it doesn't. You can't contribute 15% of your pay for 40 years and then be able to withdraw an unlimited amount of money and healthcare for the next 25-30 or more and have a workable system. On average people drawing SS/medicare get back all they ever paid in within a few years of retiring (last figures I saw it was under 5 years). My advice is go to a private retirement site and stick in the numbers it would take to equal your expected withdraws and medical insurance to live to 85 and see what it would take, I'm guessing something closer to double what you'd pay into SS/medicare (or some insane interest rate of 7-12% on average). Since 1969 the gov't own reports have shown it's a failing system. I don't know where you're getting your figures from, maybe you're counting all taxes paid but if limiting the discussion to SS/medicare taxes the figures will simply never work.

    It's really time we just admit the program is simply a socialistic program of redistributing wealth, you take taxes, put them in a big collective pot and then pay off the survivors with the collective's money. Not that it's a bad program as long as we actually fund it, which where this bill fails. In a time of crisis with SS to cut the effective rate by 25% (half individual, full employer) makes no sense. This is nothing more then offseting the expenses of today to the next generation so those today can extract the wealth and use it now, the bad part is we are at apoint in time when can see the bill coming due. It's another form of credit card economics being played out by Washington.

  13. #33
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    Here is my thread proving what I say. http://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.ph...ocial+security

    You're numbers don't add up. Sorry. And people don't recieve "unlimited" payments - they only receive them until they die!

    What I say is entirely and completely true. If the money hadn't been stolen and given to those who didn't contribute, then there would be plenty of funds.

    Your ascertion that on average, the people that contributed their entire working lives get more back than they put in is completely false. Completely. You have to discount the lost interest that would have been earned in order to even get close to your argument.

    And as for medicare, I haven't done the math on that. And neither have you.
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  14. #34
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddick View Post
    It's really time we just admit the program is simply a socialistic program of redistributing wealth, you take taxes, put them in a big collective pot and then pay off the survivors with the collective's money. Not that it's a bad program as long as we actually fund it, which where this bill fails.
    I have no argument with this. They have turned it into a redistribution of wealth by taking money from those contributing (not a tax by the way) and giving to those who didn't contribute. That is my point. That and the fact that the program would have worked if it hadn't been corrupted. And finally, I am not a socialist for expecting my fucking payments - some of the damned money that I was coerced into paying - under the penalty of law.

    The socialists/communists are the ones taking money that they never contributed in the first place.
    ~Nemo me impune lacessit~




  15. #35
    Senior Member mriddick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    Here is my thread proving what I say. http://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.ph...ocial+security

    You're numbers don't add up. Sorry. And people don't recieve "unlimited" payments - they only receive them until they die!

    What I say is entirely and completely true. If the money hadn't been stolen and given to those who didn't contribute, then there would be plenty of funds.

    Your ascertion that on average, the people that contributed their entire working lives get more back than they put in is completely false. Completely. You have to discount the lost interest that would have been earned in order to even get close to your argument.

    And as for medicare, I haven't done the math on that. And neither have you.
    The unlimited part is medicare, the part you haven't done the math on, but I have... Say you pay in $200,000 total lifetime how long does that last with a serious illiness? For that there is simply no really cut off at this point, if you need it you get it and most do need it.

    Regardless it's not some invented scenerio that just could happen to work out under the most perfect of conditions, it's not what could of been, or should of been, it's what's been done, it's the system as we have it, not as we'd like it to be. Granted you and I could easily make a great workable system out of what we have but that's not really the heart of this discussion, it's what is being done in reality today and the real effects of that. What the President and Congress are doing today is hurting an already sick program, it's just going to crash that much faster by the actions they are trying to take today.

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