Athens - The Morning After: 48 Buildings On Fire, 150 Looted, Hundreds Arrested

[JAMC]

Well since it's mostly Germany's money at stake, can you blame them?

Frankly, I'm not sure why the Germans have acted militarily.

But hey, give them time.

Depends what value you place on national sovereignty. Investors are supposed to assume the risks and losses as well as the gains based on rational decision making, even on a nation-to-nation basis. From Germany's point of view, this is turning into a one way bet; if Greece recovers, they own it - if it collapses, they gut it like a spoil of war without a shot being fired. My main concern here is that political agreements such as these, in which representatives make profound changes to the nature of a society in collusion with outside interests, without seeking the consent of the population cannot hold. I cannot help but think we'd be in a far clearer place had Papandreou (ex-PM) held his nerve and held a referendum on the bailout; the Greeks would have rejected it, but at least then we'd know we're looking at complete default.

Also, if the Greeks ignore their debts, then they have no credit and their economy will automatically collapse.

While I agree that they cannot ignore the debt, piling yet more debt on top of the existing mountain of debt doesn't really solve the problem. The rate at which sovereign debt is piling up on Greek balance sheets now outstrips the country's ability to produce new wealth to pay back those debts. Greece never had a "strong" economy to start with, but the measures being passed are undermining the country's ability to sustain a functioning economy. The country is in an unsustainable situation, as anyone who's ever been in the nightmarish situation of playing different lenders against eachother to buy time will verify. The only viable option left for Greece is bankruptcy, which at least offers the possibility of drawing a line under the whole mess and moving on.

[O.S.O.K.]

Whether you agree with LAGC or not, there is a legitimate question to be asked about the methods used by the Eurozone countries, principally Germany, to sidestep the Greek people and strongarm what remains of the legislature in that country into serving the EU's will. All major political parties in Greece are currently being cajoled into signing pledges to stick to EU austerity measures no matter what, which is tantamount to complete loss of national sovereignty as the electorate now has no means of determining the country's economic policy by ballot - it's a done deal whether they consent or not. If US debt explodes in a similar spiral of runaway compound interest, the equivalent would be Hu Jintao forcing both the Democrats and Republicans to sign binding agreements to implement the policies China felt best placed to ensure you met your loan repayments on maturing Chinese credit.

While you have a point there, I would suggest that the Greek legislature could have said "no" and simply lost their credit. Of course, that would really put them in a bad spot and it would also mean that the issuing banks would take the hit and be downgraded.... Doesn't sound like a very good option.

What would you suggest be done instead?

And LAGC made a very idiotic and naive post - again. That is why he got the response that he did. The banks are not responsible for how the money that they lend is used. It's the people and government of Greece that made the bad decsions and got themselves into a pickle - the banks were simply making the money available for an agreed upon fee. Obviously, when used right, that allows for economic development and an increase in GDP. Lack of credit creates an economic hardship, so blaming the banks for the woes of Greece is well, stupid and shows a complete lack of any kind of understanding of reality.

[El Laton Caliente]

Whether you agree with LAGC or not, there is a legitimate question to be asked about the methods used by the Eurozone countries, principally Germany, to sidestep the Greek people and strongarm what remains of the legislature in that country into serving the EU's will. All major political parties in Greece are currently being cajoled into signing pledges to stick to EU austerity measures no matter what, which is tantamount to complete loss of national sovereignty as the electorate now has no means of determining the country's economic policy by ballot - it's a done deal whether they consent or not. If US debt explodes in a similar spiral of runaway compound interest, the equivalent would be Hu Jintao forcing both the Democrats and Republicans to sign binding agreements to implement the policies China felt best placed to ensure you met your loan repayments on maturing Chinese credit.

I look at it as both the Greeks and the Germans are in a bad place. The Germans know they are likely throwing good money after bad to keep the EU from falling apart. The Greeks are losing national sovereignty, abet, by debt of their own making.

[Oswald Bastable]

All major political parties in Greece are currently being cajoled into signing pledges to stick to EU austerity measures no matter what, which is tantamount to complete loss of national sovereignty as the electorate now has no means of determining the country's economic policy by ballot - it's a done deal whether they consent or not.

Isn't that what they signed up for when they joined the EU? It's not much different than the US gov't forcing states to pay for unfunded mandates, or risk losing federal dollars. And Greece had the same option as US states: fund the mandate or tell the EU to go pound sand. If you have an issue here, it's with the Greek gov't., not the EU.

[Warthogg]

Depends what value you place on national sovereignty.

Here in the US "national sovereignty" is an outmoded concept.

We attack Iraq for their failure to have weapons of mass disruption, most here want to attack Iran because Israel wants Iran attacked or the bible has (appeared) to tell them to attack. Israel runs US foreign policy in the Middle Est because our Congressional creatures live in terror of AIPAC.

Most here long for the NWO without even knowing.


Wart

[Warthogg]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Lone Ranger and Tonto note nothing has been done to keep Greece from caving again.



Wart

[arcangel]

Agreed Detroit will most likely be the first match to light the flame. If not all of lower Michigan. This state is going to be the poster child of the shit to come. If our problems don't get fixed and real soon people will probably do anything and everything to get theirs. The winters will thin out the weaker and we will see what happens from there. I'm not worried about greece, or any other country when our government won't even fix our own problems. If we needed a bailout they wouldn't hand it to us.

[Dafapa]

Whether you agree with LAGC or not, there is a legitimate question to be asked about the methods used by the Eurozone countries, principally Germany, to sidestep the Greek people and strongarm what remains of the legislature in that country into serving the EU's will. All major political parties in Greece are currently being cajoled into signing pledges to stick to EU austerity measures no matter what, which is tantamount to complete loss of national sovereignty as the electorate now has no means of determining the country's economic policy by ballot - it's a done deal whether they consent or not. If US debt explodes in a similar spiral of runaway compound interest, the equivalent would be Hu Jintao forcing both the Democrats and Republicans to sign binding agreements to implement the policies China felt best placed to ensure you met your loan repayments on maturing Chinese credit.

Greece got itself in this position by spending more than it produces. It doesn't benefit Germany to keep pulling dead weight around, so what mental disorder makes people think Germany is going to profit on this either way? If Greece defaults after this bailout they'll feel the same economic shock as the rest of the EU, and be out the 2 bailouts they gave to Greece. On what planet do creditors turn a profit when their loan recipients default?

Why would these countries continue to throw money at Greece, a country that has proven it can't be trusted with credit, if the Greeks can't even make a good faith show of taking actions that would lead to solvency? This is typical of the spoiled brat mentality of socialists. If anyone suggests they actually exert some effort to pull their own weight they throw a tantrum.

Their loss of sovereignty is their own doing. They elected the politicians that spent like drunken sailors for decades. They elected these politicians. Their choices now are default and chaos, or austerity and pain with some hope for an organized recovery (I'm not optimistic myself).

Someone please explain to me how Germany is being evil by helping to bail Greece out yet again? This situation is abusive to Germany, not Greece. Greece is in line to get more free money they seem unlikely to pay back.

[stinker]

[T2K]

The fact that some people right here on this board believe that, somehow, Greece spending more than they had and borrowing more than they could repay was not Greece's fault is...indicative of the problem.

These are the same people who believe that people taking out mortgages on homes they couldn't or could only barely afford, and then defaulting, are somehow "victims of the mortgage crisis."

[JAMC]

I'll admit to little knowledge of the European Union and its operations, so I lack a formed opinion. But, LAGC said Greece should "handle their own affairs" and I counter with with what are they going to handle those affairs? They are broke, they have to get a bailout

Greece is not "broke" in the way you or I would be considered broke. It does still have an economy (albeit a small one) which produces GDP and borrowing from other EU countries is not the only method it has of raising money. The problem Greece now faces is that the measures being pushed through are so extreme they're actually corroding away the very fabric of the Greek economy and thereby harming the country's ability to produce enough wealth to dig itself out of the mess it's in. Even if you ignore the dire social consequences of the measures being imposed, it is difficult to figure out how Greece is supposed to rebuild its economy when a huge proportion of it's working-age population are either unemployed or emigrating with whatever money they can scrape together.

There is a genuine question here as to whether our intention is to repair Greece or smash it.

It is worth noting of course that the other options open to Greece are no less extreme. In terms of dealing with it's debt mountain, a 100% default is probably the best course of action when you think about the long-term implications of the alternatives. The answers to the many secondary problems this crisis has stirred up in Greece are also likely to be no less extreme - unemployment for instance is likely to remain cripplingly high unless there's direct intervention by the executive to re-design the country's economic model. The scale of the task they face is enormous.

[JAMC]

While you have a point there, I would suggest that the Greek legislature could have said "no" and simply lost their credit. Of course, that would really put them in a bad spot and it would also mean that the issuing banks would take the hit and be downgraded.... Doesn't sound like a very good option.

What would you suggest be done instead?

Of the two main options being discussed here, I'd advocate that the 100% default is the less damaging for Greece and the wider EU in the long term. Of course, it would create a great deal of short-term instability and chaos, but it's better to rip the plaster off and get it over with than allow the charade to carry on for a decade, consuming more and more Euros all the while.

In terms of the basic choice immediately in front of us, that's where I stand. However, there are lots of other measures that Greece does need to take in order to deal with its chronic economic problems; the first among which being the propensity for a large number of its middle-class citizens to avoid paying their income tax. That can't be allowed to continue if Greece is ever going to attain a balanced budget. The retirement age also needs to be raised (and preferably linked to life expectancy) and the inherent cronyism of the Greek public sector needs to be completely rooted out.

I also believe it would be advantageous for Greece's recovery to leave the Eurozone and return to the Drachma as this would permit the value of Greek goods to drop relative to the rest of the EU, making them more competitive.

[mriddick]

Greece can not support it's welfare state, the people want alot but don't want to pay much (the same problem here and everywhere). You simply can't work for 35 years and expect to draw a retirement for the same only contributing a fraction of your wages. The money problem is not the issue, it's actually a small sum of money, about the size of Dallas's budget, the problem is it's a yearly issue with more and more qualifying or wanting to ride the welfare bandwagon.

But then again we just a couple years of trillion dollar deficit ourselves...

[JAMC]

I look at it as both the Greeks and the Germans are in a bad place. The Germans know they are likely throwing good money after bad to keep the EU from falling apart. The Greeks are losing national sovereignty, abet, by debt of their own making.

This raises two questions. Firstly, are the Germans pursuing the preservation of the EU beyond all rational justification - presumably because the success of the EU is intrinsically linked to German national pride?

And secondly, to what extent is it acceptable for Greek citizens to be punished for the misguided activities of their representatives? Activities that in most cases lacked a democratic mandate, and in some cases that were downright illegal...

[stevelyn]

And to think this was the birthplace of western civilization.

[mriddick]

The citizens are not blameless, they bought the promises.

[JAMC]

Someone please explain to me how Germany is being evil by helping to bail Greece out yet again? This situation is abusive to Germany, not Greece. Greece is in line to get more free money they seem unlikely to pay back.

The very description of "bailing out Greece" is misleading. Germany's main motivation for pumping Greece full of Euros is to ensure that those same Euros are used to pay back German creditors. In truth, it's not Greece being bailed out, it's Germany's investment banks. They ultimately underwrite everything. all that's happening here is a transfer of financial risk from German investment institutions to the Greek public. That, in short, is what Germany stands to gain by doing this.

Everyone in Europe knows Greece is going to go bankrupt - this entire song and dance is just an exercise in the stronger EU countries like Germany and France positioning themselves well outside the blast area.

Their loss of sovereignty is their own doing. They elected the politicians that spent like drunken sailors for decades. They elected these politicians.

Representative "democracy" can only be used to whitewash so much vested interest. Do your representatives represent you? Ours certainly dont in the UK, and the elected cliques in Greece gorged themselves on it's notoriously bent public sector whilst forging the nations books, deluding the Greek public, the European Union and financial investment insititutions in the process. Do you propose that the Greek population are thoroughly deserving of the kind of punitive hardships and denegration of their national sovereignty, purely on the basis that the politicians they elected went rogue?

[JAMC]

The citizens are not blameless, they bought the promises.

Perhaps you can argue this. A fair proportion of Greeks believed that they could join the Euro, borrow at the same bond rate as Germany, pay for an Olympic games and retire in their late 50s whilst not paying income tax. On paper this equates to a nation of bone fide imbeciles. However, I am reluctant to point the finger and cast judgement because I see the same stupidity everywhere else, including in the UK. We genuinely believed for a while in the late 1990s and 2000s that property prices would continue to rise above inflation forever and that it was fine to contract out the provision of public services to the private sector on contracts that bled the country's finances dry. The best and brightest within our economic powerhouses that tried to ring the alarm bells were sacked. In many ways it's a case of "there but for the grace of god..."

However, I do ask you to consider whether the wanton destruction of Greek civic society (and the new set of chronic problems that generates) is a proportionate burden for the ordinary citizens of that country to bare for the abuse of public trust/mandate their representatives executed upon those somewhat naïve citizens. I also ask you to consider whether other countries are... how shall I put this... "making the most of it" ?

[JAMC]

And to think this was the birthplace of western civilization.

Indeed it was. The modern-day Greeks could learn a thing or two from their ancient ancestors. The kind of democracy practiced in ancient Athens was radically direct, not representative. A big dose of that would be very welcome over there at the moment methinks.

[Altarboy]

I'll see your Los Angeles and raise you Detroit; followed by DC, NYC, Boston, and Baltimore. I think the NE Corridor will put on the biggest show.

Uh oh, do I sense an east/west chimp-out challenge?