Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: Input need for AK hog gun

  1. #1
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10

    Input need for AK hog gun

    Looking for input on a AK build I'm contemplating.

    Purpose of this gun is to shoot hogs and was inspired by Red Jacket's AR 450 SOCOM hog gun.

    Going to use a Saiga 410 for parts for the build. Specs are:

    Milled AK receiver threaded for a 20 inch 45 cal heavy barrel chambered for a .458 wildcat based on the 7.62x54r cartridge. I think the milled receiver with a screwed in barrel will give the rifle a more rigid platform, sorta like a bolt action rifle. I was going to see if Tony Rumore of Tromix would set up the barrel in the same way he did for his AK 444 Marlin conversion. Finish the barrel with some kind of flash suppressor.

    This .458X54r rimmed wildcat case has straight sides like a 444 Marlin with just about the same case capacity. The difference in the size of the rim on the 7.62x54r and that of the 410 are so small there is very little modification to the head of the bolt and none to the extractor.

    Going to fabricate or have fabricated a gas block to fit on the fatter barrel. Would there be a problem using a split gas block like the ones they use on AR's? Split gas block would make it easier to install on the barrel.

    Going to try and attach the rear sight block, in this case the gas tube support, onto the receiver to get if off the barrel. That might help accuracy just a little bit.

    Sights will be a combination of optics like the AK 450 SOCOM. And I would like to finish it off with a bullpup stock to keep it short and keep the weight close to the body for a quicker response. Shorter rifle in brush would be a good asset too.

    Any input, criticism or suggestions would be most appreciated. If you see a problems with the proposed build please let me know before I start putting money in to this rifle.

    Thanks in advance for your help.

  2. #2
    Guns Network Contributor 04/2013 El Laton Caliente's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the East Texas woods
    Posts
    6,158
    Welcome to the Board!

    No advise, but what a build. Sounds like it would be a great rifle. You are dealing with a much higher gas pressure so the bleed hole size may require tinkering; start small & work up.

  3. #3
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    The heart of the Marcellus
    Posts
    1,201
    Sounds like a great build. My only thought is that if Rumore's lead times for his stock projects are any indication you may find yourself waiting a very long time before you go hunting.
    CHOOT UM!

  4. #4
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    Thanks for the input El Laton.

    I was thinking of installing an adjustable gas block. That would make it easier to shoot the whole spectrum of bullet weights.

    I believe that the pressure would be a lower than the 308 Win rounds. 308 Win is rated at max of 62,000 psi and there are all kinds of 308 conversion out there. I forget where I read it but there is a letter from a Russian engineer that states the the AK can handle hot 308 Win loads.

    And Goodman ur right about the lead time for Tony. Just checked and he is booked until June. Have to go a different direction with the barrel work.

  5. #5
    Guns Network Contributor 04/2013 El Laton Caliente's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the East Texas woods
    Posts
    6,158
    I thought about adjustable and it sounded like a lot of machine work. Wonder if a M76 or PSL gas block would work...

    Come to think about it a M76 kit and receiver might make a good starting place...

  6. #6
    Team GunsNet Gold 07/2012 / Super Moderator Gunreference1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    AZ USA
    Posts
    13,048

    Post

    Elfhunter, don't you think you could shorten up a .45-70 case and achieve the same goal with a lot less work? Just my $0.02.

    Steve
    After today, it's all historical.

  7. #7
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    You guys are making me look at this build real hard.

    I was looking at a 7.62x54r Romanian PSL kit as a starting point for the build. I did a little research and found that the PSL does real good with military ammo but won't handle the stress of hotter reloads. Everything I read pointed to using the strongest receiver I could come up with so I figured that a new US made milled case would be the best I could do.

    I chose the Saiga 410 as a the starting point because the price is good and the bolt is about the right size for the rim of the 7.62x54r case. Plus I would have all new parts needed to finish the build. I will be changing the trigger for a better quality trigger. The trigger pull would be terrible after installing the bullpup kit with the extended trigger rod.

    As for the case, I really wanted to use the 308 case but the base of the 308 case is to small to neck it up to a .458 bullet. I looked at the 45-70 case along with a bunch of other cases. The problem I had with the 45-70, is the rim diameter of the 45-70 is larger than the rim on the 7.62x54r case and I wanted to minimize the amount of material removed from the head of the bolt. The rim on a .410 is .524 inches diameter, the rim on the 7.62x54r is .567 inches diameter and the 45-70 has a rim diameter of .608 inches diameter. The difference in the amount of material removed from the bolt may not amount to a hill of beans but since I want to use a bullpup stock, that chamber is going to be real close to my head.

    The other reasons for using the 7.62x54r is that cases are readily available and it has a case capacity of about 64gr which makes it a bit larger than the 308 win with 56 gr case capacity with only .1 inch longer case. Plus it basically came down to the fact that I was going to have to either headspace off the rim of a rimmed case or off the mouth of the regular case.

    In addition, going with the 7.62x54r case gave me a chance to dream about and designing a new wildcat round, the 458x54r.

    The build would be real simple if I didn't want to make it better than it probably should be.

    Use the Saiga 410 receiver with the bolt turned to accept the rim of the 7.62x54r case. Rebarrel with a Saiga 410 contoured barrel chamber in the 486x54r round. The Saiga 410 mags will work with the new round and your done. Expand the neck of the 7.62x54r cases and start fire forming the brass.

    I think I just talked myself into building this revised easier build and then if it doesn't perform the way I like, I will build the more elaborate rifle.

    Thanks for ur input.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dr. Gonzo GED's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunreference1 View Post
    Elfhunter, don't you think you could shorten up a .45-70 case and achieve the same goal with a lot less work? Just my $0.02.

    Steve
    My thoughts too. You wouldn't have to tinker with that .410 bolt as much either right?

  9. #9
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    I went back and looked at the 45-70 case. It has a lot larger case capacity than the 7.62x54r, is about the same length and is a standard round with chamber reamers all ready made. Looks like a better choice than the .458 wildcat of the 7.62x54r. I just have to trim a little more of the bolt head but I'd think it will matter much. And if I want to get a little fancy, I can trim a little of the the rim case.

    To cut to the chase, you guys are right about the 45-70.

    Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

  10. #10
    Moderator & Team GunsNet SILVER 11/2010 Tx Dogblaster's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Just out of range
    Posts
    846
    Damn this will be a sweet build if it comes to fruition! Welcome to the board & Keep us posted on progress or ideas. My mind is ticking like a cheap Mickey mouse watch...

  11. #11
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    150
    I have been thinking about re-barreling a British Enfield to 45-70.

    I am curious as to how it will work out.

  12. #12
    Team GunsNet Gold 07/2012 / Super Moderator Gunreference1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    AZ USA
    Posts
    13,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Walker View Post
    I have been thinking about re-barreling a British Enfield to 45-70.

    I am curious as to how it will work out.
    The main issue I see is opening up the bolt face on the Enfield. The .303 British cartridge has a rim diameter of 0.540" where as the .45-70 has a rim diameter of 0.608". Since both the case length & cartridge length of the .45-70 is less than that of the .303 British you shouldn't have a problem with feeding. And remember, the .303 British round has a SAAMI rating of 49,000 psi. If you're using original 'cowboy loads' for the .45-70 you'll be fine. They're rated at 28,000 psi. If you choose more modern ammunition intended for lever actions, these are typically loaded around 45,000 psi. This to would be acceptable in an Enfield action. You will want to stay away from those loads intended for a Ruger No.1 or Browning 1885 High Wall. These pressures would be around 60,000 psi. Hope this helps!

    Steve
    After today, it's all historical.

  13. #13
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    Hi guys,

    Thanks for all your input and comments.

    Right now the only thing holding up this build is finding someone to set up the barrel. Tony Rumore, Tromix, has built a barrel very similar to this in the AK 444 Marlin conversion but his dance card is filled up until June.

    I have gone through most of the post that Tony made when he was working on the AK 47 444 Marlin conversion. The barrel he made had guides that protruded about an inch or so, similar to the ones in the Saiga 12, to guide the round into the chamber. Please let me know if you know of somebody that can setup the barrel and is available.

  14. #14
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    East of Atlanta GA
    Posts
    15,035
    Rimmed rounds feeding out of a box magazine can be difficult at times, rims get tangled up. Since you're going 45-70 case now and you mentioned trimming the rims a bit, I'm wondering if turning it into a rimless style case would be feasable with the .45-70 brass. Cut the rim down to where it is = to the diameter of the cases, sort of a giant .308 type case at the back end.
    Last edited by Schuetzenman; 02-24-2012 at 07:59 PM.

  15. #15
    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Deep In The Heart of Texas
    Posts
    9,363
    You would be better using the 303 Brit for the wildcat - rim dimeter is .540" - just a hair larger than the 410. It's also 56.4mm in length which should put OAL about right? Head diameter is .460", so good there too. And needless to say, brass 303 cases are plentiful.

    Cool build - looking forward to pics and range report!

    My AK hog gun is my Saiga 308
    ~Nemo me impune lacessit~




  16. #16
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    I really appreciate ur interest in the project. Still looking for someone to do the barrel. I know its only been a few days but I would really like to get this done. The longer I wait, the greater the chance of the money being spent on something else like necesssities, food and rent. Going to a gun show tomorrow to see what I can drum up to get er done.

    Shuetzenman I thought about a rimless case and the problem I saw with it is that the headspace would be set on the mouth of the case. Since most of the cases I was looking at had relatively small case capacity and have max case diameter just a little larger than the diameter of the bullet at .458 inches, so there would be no shoulder to headspace on. The headspace would depend on the on the length of the case and the diameter of the mouth of the case. Whereas the headspace of a rimmed case is based on the thickness of the rim and that would be easier to set up and maintain.

    I was thinking of turning down the rims of the 45-70 cases to keep from having to open up the face of the bolt more than absolutely necessary and so they would work with the 410 mags. The headspace would still be determined by the thickness of the rim and wouldn't be a problem.

    The rim of the 410 is .524 inches in diameter with a .0265 inches wide lip and the 45-70 rim is .608 inches in diameter with a .0515 inches wide lip. I can reduce the diameter of the rim of the 45-75 by .05 for a final diameter of .558 and still have a lip of .0265 inches for the extractor to grab the rim of the case.

    The problem with using the 303 British is that the largest diameter of the case is about .460 inches and not big enough for the .458 bullet. Need a case diameter of at least .480 inches.

    Thanks

    Gene

  17. #17
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    East of Atlanta GA
    Posts
    15,035

    GP-11 7.5 Swiss Cases. Head diameter .493", rim diameter .496". Cut it off at the shoulder and fire form it to expand case mouth. I bet that would work for your project.

  18. #18
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    This is a good looking case but it has the same problem most of the other rimless cases I looked at and that is the base diameter of the case is .4973 inches (12.64 mm). The mouth will have to be a least .480 inches diameter to accept a .458 bullet. Reason is .458 (bullet) and .022 (thickness of 2 case walls) equals .480 inches diameter. There would be no shoulder on this case and the cartridge would headspace off the mouth of the round. That means that the headspace would depend on the the thickness of the case (.011 inches) and the mouth of the case would have to seat against the barrel at the end of the chamber and the length of the case would have to be constantly be checked because that is the second part of the headspacing equation for a straight rimless case.

    Did some checking of the 410 mag and found that the 45-70 cartridge will fit if the rim is turned down to .558 inches. The 45-70 Winchester case rim measures .604 inches and the mag measures .60 to .602 inches wide. I can slide the case into the mag, tight but it fits. The 45-70 brass fits right into a 1/2 inch drill chuck. I will chuck the case and use the drill to reduce the rim. Then I will fire form the case with some cream of wheat to make sure there are no dimples in the case from being chucked in the barrel.

    The 45-70 cases with trimmed rims will not be unsafe if fired from another gun because it will still have enough rim to hold the cartridge in the right position with the right headspace. The extractor may not work because of the smaller diameter rim. Side light is that this gun will not be able to shoot standard 45-70 cases because the bolt face will not fit over the larger rims and that makes this a handload only rifle.

    I still need a barrel so I'm going to try and get a hold of Tony at Tromix and see if I can get the barrel done by him. Wish me luck, I'm faxing the request on Monday.

    Thanks

  19. #19
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    Hi guys,

    Just an update on the progress on this hog gun I want built. So far I can't find a gunsmith that will return my emails concerning this build. I have put aside money to build 2 of these guns and it looks like I will have to spend it on buying equipment to build them myself.

    If I can't find a gunsmith to do the barrel and thread the receiver, I will have to learn how use a mill and lath before summer. So far I have invested about 3 weeks in research on AK's, cartridges and an additional 2 weeks to learn 3d cad to design a new magazine for the gun.

    If there a gunsmith that reads this and interested in doing the work, Please emial me at elfhunter@rocketmail.com.
    If anyone knows a gunsmith that is available, please let me know. I would like to get this project completed before this summer.

    I will post when I have any news.

    Thanks

  20. #20
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    10
    Hi,

    This an update on the hog gun project.

    The Saiga 410 just isn't suitable for my original project so I'm going to chamber the 2 Saiga 410s I have in 444 Marlin wildcats, .375 JDJ and .416 JDJ or equivalents. That part of the project will be set in motion on Monday, 3/26 and hopefully will done in about a month.

    The .416 JDJ, the short range/ brush gun, was selected because of the availability of 400gr .416 bullets and the 444 Marlin can't be necked up to .458. The .375 JDJ is for medium range with a 300gr bullet.

    I have looked at all the bullpup stocks out there and have decided to build my own. I'm stealing my design from the Bulldog 762 bullpup stock for M14's. I found a good side veiw picture of the Bulldog on the web and I printed it out full size. I laid a 410 over the top of it and started laying out the plans. I'm building a foam board mock up to check for problems before I start cuttin' n bendin' metal.

    I have not given up on a powerful big bore AK hog gun yet. I acquired a Saiga 308 to shoot and upon inspection, I think I can make something of the gun. I'm thinking of chambering it in 376 Steyer. I was going to do this before the 410's but I need to fabricate a new receiver. The Saiga 308 mag well needs to be lengthened and moved and the sheet metal is bent at the front of the mag well to the point I can't use the receiver. The slow down is the bulge on the right hand side of the 308 receiver. I'm looking for a sheet metal fabricater that can make that bulge for me.

    And if'n the Saiga 308 chambered in 376 Steyr works out, I will finally build my big bore hog gun by necking up the 376 Steyer to either .416 or .458 cal. I'm starting to lean towards .416 cal because the .416 bullets have superior stats and are available in the same weights as the .458 bullets. Would be easier to form brass too.

    So far I'm 2 shotguns and 1 rifle into this project and nothing to show for it. Hopefully things will start falling into place. I will post again when I have more news.

    Thanks,

    Gene

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •