Defeating an ambush—

**HDR** · 09-11-2010, 06:45 PM

As another conceptual tool for the combat Soldier in Vietnam, Lieutenant Colonel Christian F. Dubia recommended four basic tenets to survive and defeat an enemy ambush. He used the acronym ARMS as a method of recalling these fundamentals.

"Avoid the killing zone. Elements within the killing zone must move forward out of the area of fire; those behind it must stop short of it.

Return fire immediately. A large volume of fire should be started instinctively even before the exact locations of the ambushing forces are determined.

Move selected elements aggressively against the flanks or rear of the principle enemy position.

Secure flanks and rear against follow-up attacks from different directions than those of the initial fires."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

**ubersoldate** · 09-11-2010, 07:07 PM

Cool read!

Last couple of weeks Ive been reading the Phantom warriors books again..
First hand stories of the LRRPS in VN...Talk about some ambush's on both sides..

Some of them boys had balls the size of bowling balls to do that night after night..
Great read..

One of the greatest things Ive taken from it, is the fact that if you are ambushed, as some lone shtf warrior, by a larger force who is waiting for you to enter their KZ, the chances of walking out of it, without training, or back up, still breathing are not very good.

Alot of the stories ended up their only savior was "strings" at the last minute.
Real eye opener to those who feel that if a small tactics combat situation, without training, that just alot of ammo would give someone an edge.

**HDR** · 09-12-2010, 06:22 PM

Time changes, gear gets better, but the basics remain the same.

Same thing applies when group is in the KZ when the ambush is popped; they need to get out ASAP..

Originally Posted by ubersoldate

Real eye opener to those who feel that if a small tactics combat situation, without training, that just alot of ammo would give someone an edge.

Military trains soldiers to react in certain fashions because over years of fighting wars they have learned what works, what has a chance of working and what doesn't work at all.

Originally Posted by ubersoldate

Last couple of weeks Ive been reading the Phantom warriors books again..
First hand stories of the LRRPS in VN...Talk about some ambush's on both sides..

I've heard the term Shadow Warriors applied to certain Vn era units but not Phantom Warriors. Is it a nickname or publishing house?

Ammunition helps when a larger force isolates a smaller force to grind them down. LRRPs were glorified very light Infantry; same as the other recon types their load was limited. The nature walkers carry a light load and the enemy knows it.. Once the enemy had them in contact; they would flood the area; not a good place to be..

**Helen Keller** · 09-12-2010, 06:31 PM

I have a few books written by LRRPS from Vietnam.

Wish I could get a few hundred copies and give em away for free from a " SO YOU WANNA BA RAMBO" book stand. Really big eye openers for the "Rambo WOlf" guys.

One thing to consider though

If the folks you're up against aren't trained in all the DO's and Don'ts of an ambush. Things will turn sour for them in a hurry.

Something alot of Books/Movies never show is the importance of security elements.

**ubersoldate** · 09-12-2010, 06:40 PM

Its two books by Gary Linderer, who was with the LRRPS. My father was one of the people who turned me on to the books.
Pretty darned good read imo, and they can be found used for $0.01 on amazon!

I guess Linderer made it a point to research, spend years on the phone, and criss cross the country to get the stories and actual names correct for the people involved and missions.
I like these books alot, as they dont all end in happy stories, and they go into details on missions that didnt even have contact with the enemy.
So when its a winfall ambush against the enemy, with no friendly losses, it makes those stories so much sweeter.
I would be interested in your take of them!

http://www.amazon.com/Phantom-Warrio...4334204&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Phantom-Warrio...4334204&sr=8-3

As for ambush tactics, Ive read a ton, but in reality none of that means jack sh$t when it comes down to it.
What I do know, and what I can try to use in my favor, is my love of the outdoors, and the ability to think, and try to stay out of trouble when it comes to it.
But if someones got your number, good communication and intel on where you are at, a one man or one family group doesnt seem like a postive place to be if hit by a determined group of people.

Dont want to be in that situtation, but I do know, dogs are mans best friend for a reason.

**HDR** · 09-12-2010, 08:43 PM

Amazon's random page from the first link; McDonald knew what they smelled like so he slammed on the brakes. They did have a distinctly nasty smell. OTOH we didn't smell that good either. Amazon's random page from the second link; correctly knew there were LRRP and also LRP units.

Originally Posted by ubersoldate

As for ambush tactics, Ive read a ton, but in reality none of that means jack sh$t when it comes down to it.

As we aren't in the military or guerrillas the reality is such knowledge is worth less than jack shyte. lol

Plus, no matter whose tactics you are reading they will be pretty dry reading: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...7-8/index.html I read a comment at Amazon that Plaster's Ultimate sniper made some boring as hell Army manuals interesting reading. lol However, if you enjoy history then knowing infantry "tactics," formations, etc helps understanding what happened and why it happened.

Originally Posted by ubersoldate

Dont want to be in that situtation, but I do know, dogs are mans best friend for a reason.

Dogs and also kids will always catch you.

**HDR** · 09-12-2010, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Helen Keller

Something alot of Books/Movies never show is the importance of security elements.

Units have security elements; LRRPs have yourself, a very few buds, shit for a radio and damned little ammunition.

**arcangel** · 10-18-2010, 06:50 PM

Them LRRP's were some mean ass dudes. My uncle served in the Army durring Nam, I beleive 2 tours. When people were avoiding the draft and going to Canada, he came from Canada to fight for us. He told me plenty stories of ambushes and the things he had to do to get out. He also told me on his first patrol 50 guys went in, and 6 came out still breathing including himself. He also told me bamboo packed with explosives made a good day go bad. I remember a high school graduation we went to for my cousin, the power went out. When the power was restored we found him under the table with his 1911 freaking out. We had to leave.

**HDR** · 10-19-2010, 10:04 PM

LRRPs were slick at avoiding contact.

More Canadians came here to enlist than Americans went to Canada to avoid being drafted.

**arcangel** · 10-20-2010, 09:33 AM

Didnt know that, I thought Canada was the place to be when the draft was going on.

**HDR** · 10-21-2010, 06:22 AM

I guess that would depend on where one's priorities where..

The only time it bothered me was when they wanted to come back. IMO, they made their decision based on their beliefs and priorities; so stick with it...

Btw, after they arrived Canada wished they didn't. lol.

**BigDumbGerman** · 10-23-2010, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by HDR

I guess that would depend on where one's priorities where..

The only time it bothered me was when they wanted to come back. IMO, they made their decision based on their beliefs and priorities; so stick with it...

Btw, after they arrived Canada wished they didn't. lol.

Fuckin' A, Sir! The grass on the other side is greener 'cause it tastes like shit.

It's interesting you mention vacating the kill zone as a priority...

My formal training on this was very clear: "Get the F*** out of the kill zone!", then return fire. About 5 years ago, I had my ass ROYALLY chewed by an O-4 Infantry "Officer" when (in training), I directed my squad to do just that "GET THE F*** OUT OF THE KILL ZONE!". I was told the proper response was to lay down a base of fire and THEN, exit said unpleasantness...

Just goes to show...

BDG