Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: PKM Surplus Ammunition Question

  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200

    PKM Surplus Ammunition Question

    Of the surplus lots of ammunition now in the United States does anyone know which makes, year of production, and lots feed reliably in a full auto PKM 7.62 x 54R gun?

    Has anyone tested a lot for range, accuracy and penetration in the specific Eastern Standard model lot designation (ie a properly military combat serviceable test?)

    Any ideas or insight would be appreciated. We use small lots of surplus for linking in our new production PKM links and we are looking for smaller lots, as it usually is not viable to bring in enough of our new production brass cases boxer primed ball ammunition in with out loosing money. It is good to have a small scale alternate supply. Most/many lots of 7.62 x 54R surplus ammunition which is usually bought on price alone for the civilain market are know to fail in a PKM, let alone being able to pass a proper Eastern Standard military combat service test

  2. #2
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    East of Atlanta GA
    Posts
    15,035
    Experience IN a full auto PKM ... Not even close. I've used Bulgarian and 80's vintage Russian like is currently on the market. Those are both really good full power silver tipped (147 gr. lt. ball). I've also shot Hungarian lt. ball, Romanian, Chinese, East German and Yugoslav / Bosnian. All these were put through 91-30 and Finnish M39 rifles. None were in any kind of belt fed. The fastest ones (2700 to 2800 fps) fired over an Oehler 35P chronograph were the Russian and Hungarian followed closely by the Bulgarian. Chinese surplus was the slowest btw at barely over 2600 fps.

  3. #3
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Indiana, a state that is trying to remain free.
    Posts
    12,280
    I wonder if there is even one operational full auto PKM in the land of shall not be infringed. How do you manage one in Canada with all your silly rules? Very curious to know. Thanks!

  4. #4
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Purely full auto and military business, primarily USG

    The trick question is age, headstamp and which distributor you bought it from. With various factories there are a number of them along with a number of bullet weights and types. Of the countries mentioned all have a load that will work in a rifle but fail miserably in a PKM

    Thank you for the comments and if you could be more specific this would be appreciated

  5. #5
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    East of Atlanta GA
    Posts
    15,035
    More specific than the bullet weight and chronograph speeds? Seriously? Pick up the telephone and call them to ask what year is their ammo is my best suggestion. The Russian surplus available from several US sources now has between 1970's to 1980's date codes on it. Russian surplus from 1970 on forward has always turned in the fastest bullet speeds and being sliver tipped is the 147 to 148 grain weight Light Ball round. Try Aim Surplus for starters.

  6. #6
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetzenman View Post
    More specific than the bullet weight and chronograph speeds? Seriously? Pick up the telephone and call them to ask what year is their ammo is my best suggestion. The Russian surplus available from several US sources now has between 1970's to 1980's date codes on it. Russian surplus from 1970 on forward has always turned in the fastest bullet speeds and being sliver tipped is the 147 to 148 grain weight Light Ball round. Try Aim Surplus for starters.
    The answer comes first down to people with actual hands on experience with PKM machine gun use to a specific lot year Mfg. A physical test as data is only a starting point. For example we have produced some 7.62 x 54R ball to CIP standards that worked well in an SVD rifle, but this same standard will fail in a PKM machine gun

    AIM is one idea and thank you for that but as most of the US civilian import market is focused on civilian use in rifles, and most importers and customers don't know and don't care if the ammunition will function in PKM machine gun. Hence my question

  7. #7
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    East of Atlanta GA
    Posts
    15,035
    Definitely people don't know as PKM full autos can only be dealer samples. There might be 3 to 6 that have one in the USA and none of them are posting here as far as I can think of. I see you posted this same opening question in the full auto forum, my guess is you won't get any better answer there. You're asking for specialized information that only a scant few might have any experience with. I know of nobody here that frequents Gunsnet that fits into your very niche specific window of experience.

  8. #8
    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    3,750
    If you have legal access to full auto PKMs why not answer this question the fun way and order a palette of each type that you can find and run it through the PKMs and document performance?

  9. #9
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    If you have legal access to full auto PKMs why not answer this question the fun way and order a palette of each type that you can find and run it through the PKMs and document performance?
    This for current or immediate needs and if someone has current experience it saves time and money to source small lots that are known to work. This is part of value of this forum. Why reinvent the wheel if a member can say which make/lot/year of surplus has worked well in a PKM and which they have had unreliable experiences with?

    If anyone can answer this original question with ammunition that is known to be specifically available from a specific source this would be greatly appreciated

  10. #10
    Contributor 02/2014 FunkyPertwee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    11,163
    No one here has a full auto PKM. Sorry dude.

    The best your going to get is one of us might have a semi-auto version, or at least experience on one.

    When you find your answer please bring it here for us, because I think most of us are curious about this now.

    Thanks.
    "I'm fucking furious, I'm violently angry, and I like it. If you don't know what that feels like then I feel bad for you"

  11. #11
    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    3,750
    I'd be willing to bet that anyone who has run a belt through one at a machine gun shot or as part of military familiarization training didn't stop to check out the head stamps on the casings

  12. #12
    Senior Member tank_monkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kalifornia
    Posts
    7,017
    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that anyone who has run a belt through one at a machine gun shot or as part of military familiarization training didn't stop to check out the head stamps on the casings
    LOL!

  13. #13
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyPertwee View Post
    No one here has a full auto PKM. Sorry dude.

    The best your going to get is one of us might have a semi-auto version, or at least experience on one.

    When you find your answer please bring it here for us, because I think most of us are curious about this now.

    Thanks.
    Thank you for your comments. We realize that most people on the civilian market may not have PKM full auto shooting experience, however, as the civilian market is the raison d'etre for these surplus ammunition imports it seems asking civilians and industry shooters to be the most logical place to start for the few people that do shoot PKMs, USG folks that are also shooters, and distributors who can confirm or deny as there have been some real barn burner 7.62 x 54R ammunition failures in the PKM. Also CIP standard 7.62 x 54R FMJ ball that would work well in a SVD/PSL has also been known to fail in a PKM. Not all 7.62 x 54R is not created equal. Please also keep in mind that even new production 7.62 x 54R ammunition that is brought in primarily for the civilian market and as there is a high propensity that this ammunition is made to either SAMMI or its European CIP brother the chances of failure in a PKM machine gun are very real

  14. #14
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by tank_monkey View Post
    LOL!

    Only when the ammunition fails! Hooah!

  15. #15
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that anyone who has run a belt through one at a machine gun shot or as part of military familiarization training didn't stop to check out the head stamps on the casings
    Only when the ammunition fails Hooah!

    Seriously, in incidents such as the AEY scandal reported in the NYT in March 2008 bad ammunition was not only purchased by by the USG, but also made it onto the battlefield in Afghanistan. In the middle of the fighting, killing and dying one's sense of humor just disappears

  16. #16
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200

    A good summary for PKM ammunition problems

    The whole subject can be summed up quite easily. There is good ammunition and bad ammunition, and ammunition just not suited for a PKM in this case with a recoil impulse too low to reliably cycle a PKM. Unless the ammunition is specifically made and qualified for a PKM, for a life and death combat application each lot in a Hodgepodge of lots must be tested properly before this ammunition is sent into the field so someone's brother, sister, spouse of family member is not being sent to their deaths, and missions compromised. The county of origin or even factory is not necessarily a pass or fail mark as noted earlier. The lots of ammunition simply have to be tested. This is how the USG has landed in trouble occasionally when they buy of US domestic market in a hurry with a panic buy at the last minute, or by from unqualified or unknown lot overseas . Like an failed aircraft part, you cannot just pull over to the nearest cloud and call a tow truck

    Sadly, there is a real lack of information and also outright fraud in the defence Industry and surplus trade when "Klondike type gold rushes" in military operations come up and every gangster and rascal crawls out from under a rock for their "piece of the action" whether what they are selling is qualified for military use or not, or if they even know what they are talking about.

    Look at the AEY scandal that broke in the New York Times story in March 2008 (a combination of James Bond, Tom Clancy, Leave it to Beaver, and the Muppets) or the PKM link fraud warning on another post we did here that has been to law enforcement with the help of the armed forces for investigation. Its really no different than many other industries when there is more money to be made through fraud

    Here is a link to the NYT story below that was well documented and tragically very real

    Supplier Under Scrutiny on Arms for Afghans

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/wo...ia/27ammo.html

    Extra Note

    If it were not coming from such a well documented sources the story wold be completely unbelievable. BTW these problems have not gone away, just the faces have changed. Last year a U.S. contractor body was sent back to his wife in the U.S. when a PG-7V rocket propelled grenade blew up, not only killing one but injuring others (ammunition that never should have been offered, tested in a dangerous way by people who have no business offering poor ammunition and had no idea what they were doing). We have sold almost 100,000 rds of PG-7V alone for USG use since 2001, almost half of it surplus stock . This was all properly tested, no accidents, no drama and everything that was promised was delivered on time and as described. After now going into our 32 year this is the value of experience and a professional code of conduct, in which the money is secondary to the mission. No idea how these others even sleep at night.

  17. #17
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    200

    Question: Advanced Smallarms powder developments

    Has anyone heard of any powder developments that would allow our 300gr advanced .338 Lapua Magnum Generation II projectile to effectively achieve 2000 yard / 2000 meter extreme range while still using the standard .338 Lapua Magnum Cartridge case? More information on the whole development program can be seen on our website link below (1)

    We welcome any comments including any "faint hope" developments , including powder developments or other & also larger calibers that may be adapted. There is a song for that, but only if you are RCAF * As our American Marine Brothers and Sisters would say: Ooh Rah!

    We welcome any information, ideas or referrals. Powder capable of only 1500-1700 yards meters for our .338 Lapua Magnum Generation II development program, while interesting, is not really that interesting to us as it has not been were we are going since 1993. We are looking for a “generational powder improvement” not just an incremental one. In order to achieve one's goals in life it is important to have a vision or long term plan, even if it may be on the “outer frontier” of possibility. This may not be for most people, but then we are not most people; not any better or worse, just different, and we are "completely cool" with that. The late President Theodore Roosevelt’s in the "Man in the Arena" speech in Paris in 1910 also had something to say about that. President Roosevelt’s speech also can found on our Service "A Tribute" page at the base of its main page (3) which was written in tribute to the service and sacrifice of the people in the field and our allies as they "stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves". You and I get to go home at night. These people do not. This is where our first loyalty lies . Yours should also, and probably does also in many cases.

    (1)

    http://cainalongbranch.com/OrdnanaceDevelopements


    (2) Coming in on a wing and a prayer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B69CquvLHgY


    (3)

    http://cainalongbranch.com/Tribute

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •