Oil Change Screw Up, Damage?

[l921428x]

I am going to make a comment that a lot of you will probably take issue with. If possible a man should always take a car in for service. In general (and notice I say in general) women don't know much about cars and are therefore are often taken advantage of by service managers. In general men can talk the talk and sound like they have mechanical knowledge, even if they don't. Men, in general, don't drive with low oil warning lights on, drive with semi-flat tires and so forth whereas women do. Just sayin.

I already said that. I take the car make the guy show me the stick and read the gage. And if snowflakes take issue................

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Have to agree, your engine is pretty wasted. The reason it stops running is partial/complete seizing, Your cylinders and rings on the piston are pretty screwed. You might be able to get it running, but it will never be the same. They owe you an engine.

[vit]

I have been changing my own oil for the past 10 years or so, mostly because the kids at the quick change place are too inept to get a job at McDonalds and the dealership is too much hassle.

[l921428x]

Yeah I changed my oil also until it got difficult to roll around on the ground.

[coppertales]

Changing my own oil is one of the things I can still do.

[5.56NATO]

Have to agree, your engine is pretty wasted. The reason it stops running is partial/complete seizing, Your cylinders and rings on the piston are pretty screwed. You might be able to get it running, but it will never be the same. They owe you an engine.

The rod and main bearings will be demolished as well, oil pressure will be low, way low.

[Altarboy]

So, any updates?

[l921428x]

Changing my own oil is one of the things I can still do.

Enjoy it while you can...but my butt gets down with the best and wants to stay for the rest.

[Krupski]

Well this is a first. I had the oil changed at a local place that does oil changes and tire work and they didn't put oil back in the car....

My wife dropped it off and picked it up and she drove about 1-2 miles before it stopped running, I went and tried to start it and it would not start so we had it towed home, it sat in the garage for a week while out of town. I was able to start it yesterday and it turned on but was vibrating like crazy and a loud knocking noise, it ran like that maybe 10 seconds before shutting it off. This morning I checked the dip stick and it is dry, no oil at all on the stick.....

Its a Toyota Camry. For those of you with much more mechanical experience than me what are the chances there is permanent damage from the 1-2 miles of driving and 10 seconds of running?

Before I get into lawsuit mode the company offer to tow it back to their shop and put oil in it and have their techs test it. Should I trust that they have techs capable of diagnosing if there is engine damage? Although if there is damage I would think that it would be apparent even after putting oil in it.

I thought about insisting to take it to the Toyota dealership to look at but if they refuse I don't know if I have many options to force it. Another problem is my wife said they didn't giver her a receipt and she didn't ask for one before leaving, she paid cash, we are looking for it now but she thinks she never got the receipt

Aww shit... sorry to hear that. Your engine most certainly is toast. It's POSSIBLY repairable, but that would involve boring the cylinders to remove any deep gouges and then honing them (and this is ONLY if you have iron sleeved cylinders... if they are bare ceramic or anodize coated aluminum - nothing you can do). The repair will also involve at a minimum new piston rings and possibly pistons too if they are scored. Most probably, the engine is a total loss and will need to be REPLACED.

Plus running the engine dry distributed metal shavings all inside, so even if you fill it with oil, the shavings will circulate and do more damage (until the oil filter gets them).

IF you go back to that shop, play innocent... tell them "I was here the other day - remember? I'd like to have some more work done". Be sure you have a witness and even a hidden video or audio recorder.

They probably did some paperwork when they serviced your car (even though they didn't give your wife a receipt). Try something like "I can't find my receipt - can you dig up your copy so I can get the exact amount for my records?" or "My wife said it cost "X" dollars (maybe double or triple what it actually was) and say "that can't be right" (then do the guy-to-guy joke "you know how women are"), then ask to see the paperwork to get the "real" numbers.

(edit to add): Another idea: Tell them you keep a record of all car repairs in your glovebox because having the records lets you get more $$$ for the car when you sell it, so could they give you a copy of the receipt or make one up with the repair details and the date and price (for your "glovebox records" of course). Don't let on that you are having a problem. Make them think you are happy - no suspicion on their part.

If / when they come up with your receipt, be sure your witness sees it and TAKE A PHOTO OF IT... a good clear one that can be read (if they suddenly don't want you to keep it or if they say "this is our copy - we'll make a copy for you").

Then, when you have sufficient evidence and backup to prove they did the work, THEN see if they will pay to have it fixed (at a place of YOUR choosing). If not, get the lawyer.

Bottom line:

• Your engine is 99.9% surely fucked.
• The company is responsible.
• They have business insurance.
• They need to "make you whole" (that is, car runs fine like it did before you got it "serviced").
• You need solid proof that they did the work and made the mistake. Have a witness or two, AND take photographs.
• Use your best poker face to avoid any suspicion on their part. If they suspect anything, they'll never come up with the receipt.
• Either THEY make you whole, or you sue.

Good luck... it was probably an honest mistake, but they OWE YOU nonetheless.

[Krupski]

That's what kills me, we paid cash and she didn't get a receipt. The manager said the work wasn't in their system. I am starting to think whoever she gave the money to did not enter it in the system and pocked the money.

If I take it to the shop to put oil in it and check it what should they do to check if there is engine damage or would it have to go to the dealer to check that?

You ASKED them already? Shit... you'll probably never get the paperwork now. Dammit.

[NAPOTS]

are you guys sure it is fucked, if the lifters are hydraulic won't they collapse with no oil pressure and kill the engine before you roach the bearings? I have been told that the main bearings can last a surprisingly long time with an empty oil pan due to the amount that is on there, like an hour or more, well, at least until the engine seizes.

[Krupski]

I have been changing my own oil for the past 10 years or so, mostly because the kids at the quick change place are too inept to get a job at McDonalds and the dealership is too much hassle.

Not to mention that those idiot "certified mechanics" do crap like not wiping the dirt and grit off the top of the zerk fittings before they grease the ball joints and pump crap into the joint.

They are also notorious for not changing the oil filter (but saying they did) and sometimes not even changing the oil. On television "stings", they've even been caught ripping the rubber boots on the CV joints and then offering to replace them for the "low low price of......"

Then they do their "courtesy inspection" and find all kind of things wrong like oil and coolant leaks, worn water pump, bad belts, hoses "about to start leaking" and how they can "fix it all up" for the "low price" of "bend over so we can rape you more".

I HATE getting state inspections because I'm FORCED to let some idiot "mechanic" fuck with my car and do shit that I have to fix when I get back home.

The two best once that happened to me years ago were:

(1) I had replaced the front brake pads on my '79 Chevy Impala about one week before I got the car inspected. The idiot kid told me "the pads were worn, but they're barely good enough to pass". The kid had the nerve to offer to let me SEE how "bad" they were. When I pointed out that the paint on the pads wasn't even burned off yet and that the pads were a good 1/2 inch thick and that I had replaced them a week ago and then called him an "incompetent idiot", he had nothing to say.

(2) I got an inspection on my 1970 Plymouth Duster that had 4 wheel drum brakes. As you probably know, you need to remove the cotter pin, castle nut and washer to remove the outer wheel bearing in order to remove the drum to inspect the brake pads.

Well the asshole kid who "inspected" my car did the following:

* BENT the cotter pin back and forth until it broke in order to remove it.
* Used Channel Locks (water pump pliers) to unscrew the castle nut.
* DROPPED the wheel bearing on the floor where it's grease stuck to all the grit on the floor.
--- then after "inspecting" the brake pads by feeling them with greasy hands ---
* Put the drum back on.
* Put the gritty bearing back in.
* Almost did a CHIN-UP on the pliers to tighten the castle nut as tight as he could.
* DIDN'T put a new cotter pin in
* Put the dust cover back on by hand and didn't tap it into place with a mallet.

As soon as I drove out, I jacked up the front of my car, tool apart the disaster the kid made, cleaned the bearing as best as I could, then put it together properly (especially the proper tightness for the wheel bearing).

When I got home, I pulled it apart again, cleaned out all the grease in the bearing with gasoline, then repacked the bearing, wiped everything else clean, used some alcohol to try and get the grease off the pads, then put it all back together.

I PITY people who have their cars "serviced" by these "ASE certified" idiots and have NO CLUE how much damage is done to their cars.

Imagine how my wheel bearing could have seized and possibly snapped off the axle shaft (or just locked up the wheel) when driving at 60 MPH on the highway. I'd get killed because of some dumb-ass incompetent "mechanic" and nobody would know it.

Pisses me off just thinking about it.

[Krupski]

are you guys sure it is fucked, if the lifters are hydraulic won't they collapse with no oil pressure and kill the engine before you roach the bearings? I have been told that the main bearings can last a surprisingly long time with an empty oil pan due to the amount that is on there, like an hour or more, well, at least until the engine seizes.

No they won't (at least not quickly).

Hydraulic lifters have an internal check valve, orifice and spring. The spring wants to push up the pushrod cup, but it's way too weak to actuate the valve.

If there is a gap between the lifter and the pushrod, (valve lash) the spring will slowly push the cup upwards and suck in oil from the oil gallery. Once the gap is closed, the lifter can't suck in any more oil and the valve spring pressure tries to push the cup back down, but there is a solid oil filled space preventing the cup from moving down.

Now, you can imagine that if you over-rev the engine and float the valves, the cups will try to adjust up TOO HIGH and result in valves that don't fully close, so there is a small orifice that allows the supporting oil to slowly leak out back into the gallery.

The end result is that the lifter automatically maintains zero valve lash by sucking in or pushing out some oil.

But, if there were NO oil, the orifice would slowly allow the lifter to completely empty. The amount it empties is only around 1/16 to 1/8 inch. With no oil, the valves would clatter like an old Mopar slant-six, but the engine would certainly keep running (the valves would not open quite as far as they should, but they would still open and close and the engine would still run).

How do you think a brand new engine fresh off the assembly line which has empty lifters can be started for the first time? The lifters still operate the valves, even when empty.

Or, when you shut off your car, certainly at least ONE valve stops in the compressed position. If it drained out fast, that valve and lifter would tick like crazy when you started the car back up (until the lifter filled back up). But, it doesn't do that, does it?

It takes a good long time for a lifter to orifice out oil.

[Krupski]

Question......if they have no record of this......why were they willing to tow and check it out? Have you used this outfit before?
Dan


security vedio of car being serviced??????????????????????

^^^^^^^^^^^^ this: Great idea.

Maybe a lawyer can even subpoena the video (and for that matter their records).

[Krupski]

Permanent damage? No. The engine can be rebuilt or replaced. Yes
The engine most likely "spun a bearing". Can this be fixed? Well it depends on the damage to the crank and connecting rod. Most likely the crank is trashed.

They owe you a engine.

Contact the business and talk to a MANAGER. Tell them what happened. They need to know. Get his contact information. Get HIS managers contact information.
DO NOT allow them to "fix there mistake" by taking the car from you until you have talked to an attorney.
Take PICTURES WITH DATES AND TIMES.
Make several copies of the receipt.




Your best bet is to contact an attorney and leave the car where it is until they decide to have it inspected.

I hope you learned your lesson. Always do your own maintenance.

It would be better to deal with their corporate headquarters, not the local shop (if they are not a local shop - I hope).

Corporate cares about their image and a few thousand $$$ to keep the customers happy is peanuts to them (whereas the local shop would faint at the thought).

[Krupski]

are you guys sure it is fucked, if the lifters are hydraulic won't they collapse with no oil pressure and kill the engine before you roach the bearings? I have been told that the main bearings can last a surprisingly long time with an empty oil pan due to the amount that is on there, like an hour or more, well, at least until the engine seizes.

Main bearings may be OK (you're right - THOSE can last quite a while without oil), but those new piece of shit aluminum engines usually are not sleeved and THEY die almost immediately without oil (they're usually too cheap to even use iron sleeves... they either ceramic coat or just anodize the cylinder walls!).

[Sherman]

Main bearings may be OK (you're right - THOSE can last quite a while without oil), but those new piece of shit aluminum engines usually are not sleeved and THEY die almost immediately without oil (they're usually too cheap to even use iron sleeves... they either ceramic coat or just anodize the cylinder walls!).

When the oil pressure goes to ZERO, the thin layer of pressurized oil that is normally supplied by the oil pump is nil between the bearing and the main part. Meaning that metal on metal contact is present which very quickly creates friction, heat and then seizure.
Walla, you have a spun bearing which most of the time is catastrophic ( crank journals are scored beyond repair). With today's tight tolerance engines......zero oil pressure will kill the bearings in short order.
The pistons and rings will survive zero oil pressure for a short time. Bearings........nope......they are the first to go with no pressurized lube.

Your talking about the new Ford 5.0 engines. They don't have iron sleeves. Why do you think the GM LS engines are far more superior to the Ford 5.0 and most often used when doing restomods?

[Krupski]

When the oil pressure goes to ZERO, the thin layer of pressurized oil that is normally supplied by the oil pump is nil between the bearing and the main part. Meaning that metal on metal contact is present which very quickly creates friction, heat and then seizure.
Walla, you have a spun bearing which most of the time is catastrophic ( crank journals are scored beyond repair). With today's tight tolerance engines......zero oil pressure will kill the bearings in short order.
The pistons and rings will survive zero oil pressure for a short time. Bearings........nope......they are the first to go with no pressurized lube.

Your talking about the new Ford 5.0 engines. They don't have iron sleeves. Why do you think the GM LS engines are far more superior to the Ford 5.0 and most often used when doing restomods?

Years ago a buddy of mine got pissed off at his 1972 Duster (Mopar) which had a 225 slant six. He decided to kill it by draining the oil and then running it until it died.

He drained the oil, then put vice-grips on the throttle cable to hold the engine at about 3/4 of full speed.

It ran for a good 20 MINUTES before he calmed down, shut off the car and put in new oil.

Didn't hurt the car one bit. Aside from the usual clatter of the solid valve lifters, the engine sounded the same... no clunking main bearings, oil pressure was good (he had an oil pressure gauge in the car) and no problems with the cylinder walls or rings (didn't burn any oil).

I'm sure that even without oil pressure, a little residual dribbled down from higher points in the engine and provided enough to protect the mains.

[NAPOTS]

The cylinder walls and hence rings are lubed by spray off the crank agent they? I could see these going quick with low pressure because some of that oil is consumed right?

[jet3534]

.."

I HATE getting state inspections because I'm FORCED to let some idiot "mechanic" fuck with my car and do shit that I have to fix when I get back home.

The required State inspections result in millions of people being ripped off on an ongoing basis and I can't begin to say how much these required inspections piss me off. I don't know what it would take, but this practice needs to end. I am currently fortunate that I have found an honest garage to go to for the required yearly inspection. Most of the places that rip people off are so blatant that their dishonesty is obvious.