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Thread: m16 trigger in an AR?

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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    m16 trigger in an AR?

    I just scored a new Aero Precision stripped lower and am planning on making a retro m16 look alike. I was wondering if a surplus trigger would fit in my ar build. I will probably be using all new parts but just for personal reasons I would like to find a used m16 trigger that has the possibility of being in vietnam or somewhere used in combat to go in it... is this a possibility? are they hard to find? will it work?
    Last edited by rci2950; 02-03-2018 at 01:33 PM.
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    Site Admin & **Team Gunsnet Silver 12/2012** Richard Simmons's Avatar

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    I'd think the only way you could get something like that would be in a demilled parts kit and even then did the weapon see combat or decades in boot camp?
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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Simmons View Post
    I'd think the only way you could get something like that would be in a demilled parts kit and even then did the weapon see combat or decades in boot camp?
    weather it did or didn't isn't important. the mystery is all I'm looking for. as long as it will fit no problem I will start my search. a parts kit would be awesome if I could get that up here as I would get the stock and hand guards as well.
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    Site Admin & **Team Gunsnet Silver 12/2012** Richard Simmons's Avatar

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    Ever since folks got the bug for these retro M16's the price of parts kits has gone way up and availability way down. In Canada you might have access to more and cheaper than we do here. Good luck.
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    Maybe but Hell is costs a pinky finger to send them a letter.
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    well that was easy. I just asked the same question in the major Canadian gun forum and apparently the trigger is part of the forbidden fa parts. so no can do. looms like all new parts for me.
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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Don't know about the trigger but that lower will be pretty good. I can't believe how well they are rated for the price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rci2950 View Post
    well that was easy. I just asked the same question in the major Canadian gun forum and apparently the trigger is part of the forbidden fa parts. so no can do. looms like all new parts for me.
    what is the major Canadian gun forum? And that sucks about the trigger
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

    In a world of snowflakes,
    be the heat..

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    Senior Member BISHOP's Avatar

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    My guess is canadiangunnutz. I used to be a member.


    BISHOP

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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHOP View Post
    My guess is canadiangunnutz. I used to be a member.


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    yup canadiangunnutz.com. I'm the same username as here. the trigger is illegal to install... I need a semi only one.
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    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rci2950 View Post
    yup canadiangunnutz.com. I'm the same username as here. the trigger is illegal to install... I need a semi only one.
    I have a geiselle SSA that I really like

    https://geissele.com/lower-parts/triggers.html

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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rci2950 View Post
    I just scored a new Aero Precision stripped lower and am planning on making a retro m16 look alike. I was wondering if a surplus trigger would fit in my ar build. I will probably be using all new parts but just for personal reasons I would like to find a used m16 trigger that has the possibility of being in vietnam or somewhere used in combat to go in it... is this a possibility? are they hard to find? will it work?
    There is no difference in the outward look of a Stoner trigger whether it be from an AR-15 or M-16. And, since an M-16 trigger does not make a full auto action, I see no reason to use one over the other.

    With that said, the standard AR/M16 hammer sear engagement face is very close to the pivot point of the hammer The very short "moment arm" means that more force is necessary in order to pull the trigger which first slightly pushes the hammer back further, then finally slips off the sear surface and allows the rifle to fire.

    Aftermarket triggers use the "AK style" of holding back the hammer, which makes for a MUCH smoother and easier trigger pull.

    Look at this pic:

    (Click for full size)



    See the differences in length? The longer radius gives you a much easier and smoother trigger pull.

    Note in this drawing the short radius sear area is normally unused and is just a "safety catch" in case the sear slips (same as a 1911 "half cocked" position).


    BTW, here's my son's "Vietnam clone" AR-15 (which he calls "his M-16"). The upper is right, as is the duckbill flash hider and triangle handguards, but the lower is wrong (only one I had on hand at the time). I even gave him a genuine "Vietnam era" 20 round mag stamped "Colts Patented F.A." on the bottom and with an aluminum follower.


    (Click pic for full res)




    The buttstock, pistol grip and sling are period correct (buttstock is slightly shorter than an AR-15 type and it has a trapdoor in it. The P-Grip has no finger bump). Someday I've got to get a correct receiver...
    Last edited by Krupski; 02-04-2018 at 05:11 PM. Reason: fubar'd the pic link
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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by l921428x View Post
    Maybe but Hell is costs a pinky finger to send them a letter.
    Check Gunbroker.......
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    I was under the impression m16 parts in an AR were tabu in the US as well, I know It was just a few years ago that the bolt carrier was cleared to use in an AR ... I know the difference in an AR trigger and an M16 is that the back of the channel the sear fits in is closed in an AR trigger, other than that I wasn’t aware there was a difference in a mil spec trigger?

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    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    I was under the impression m16 parts in an AR were tabu in the US as well, I know It was just a few years ago that the bolt carrier was cleared to use in an AR ... I know the difference in an AR trigger and an M16 is that the back of the channel the sear fits in is closed in an AR trigger, other than that I wasn’t aware there was a difference in a mil spec trigger?
    Anyone know the rules for sure? Without the third hole and auto sear it out to be kinda moot from the atf perspective

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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    I was under the impression m16 parts in an AR were tabu in the US as well, I know It was just a few years ago that the bolt carrier was cleared to use in an AR ... I know the difference in an AR trigger and an M16 is that the back of the channel the sear fits in is closed in an AR trigger, other than that I wasn’t aware there was a difference in a mil spec trigger?
    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    Anyone know the rules for sure? Without the third hole and auto sear it out to be kinda moot from the atf perspective

    That's right. The ONLY difference between the triggers is the clearance notch at the rear of the trigger to allow the disconnector to be held back by the selector.

    And, the difference between an AR disconnector and an M-16 part is that the M-16 disconnector has the rear "tail" on it (just like an AK disconnector does).

    Since neither part is a firearm, and since an M-16 trigger group does not make a full auto rifle, I see no reason to worry.

    You need many more parts to make a full auto (and I won't go into any detail lest the BATFE try to accuse me of some sort of "conspiracy" to violate the First Amendment).

    With all that said, I would NEVER want a standard trigger in an AR. They pull too hard.

    I prefer those nice after-market single stage parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    That's right. The ONLY difference between the triggers is the clearance notch at the rear of the trigger to allow the disconnector to be held back by the selector.

    And, the difference between an AR disconnector and an M-16 part is that the M-16 disconnector has the rear "tail" on it (just like an AK disconnector does).

    Since neither part is a firearm, and since an M-16 trigger group does not make a full auto rifle, I see no reason to worry.

    You need many more parts to make a full auto (and I won't go into any detail lest the BATFE try to accuse me of some sort of "conspiracy" to violate the First Amendment).

    With all that said, I would NEVER want a standard trigger in an AR. They pull too hard.

    I prefer those nice after-market single stage parts.
    Not exactly Krupkski ... Theoretically, if you put a m16 trigger, sear & selector in an AR ... you might create an illegal unregistered machine gun ... The sear ensures the round is completely chambered and the bolt is locked before the hammer is released; insuring you don't have a premature detonation ... This is why the guy that used to sell the drop-in sear in the ShotGun News back in the 70's-80's called it a SAFETY sear and got by with it for so long ... His device, in combination with the bolt carrier and other M16 FCG parts (which he did not sell) insured your AR didn't prematurely detonate the round before being fully chambered and the bolt was locked (out of battery). It functioned just like 3rd hole M16 sear does ... without that tale-tell 3rd hole! Of course prior to May 19(?), 1986 all you had to do is register one of these SAFETY sears on a form 1 and ... WahLa, any AR could legally be transformed into a machine gun

    I still see guys selling M16 FCG's at gun shows and on GunBroker as its not illegal to own them, but it is illegal to install them unless you are installing them in a registered M16 or Registered Drop-In Sear (RDIS)

    BTW, you can legally install the M16 hammer & sear in a AR IFyou cut the hook off the hammer, AND the tail off the sear ... I knew several shooters that ... back in the day ... Before all these fancy triggers, would experiment with surplus hammers and sears, trying to make a lighter trigger, sometimes using set screws to controll over-travel ... Much like the early JPEnterprise Single-Stage Match trigger.

    Mods, if this is over the line please delete ...

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    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    Not exactly Krupkski ... Theoretically, if you put a m16 trigger, sear & selector in an AR ... you might create an illegal unregistered machine gun ... The sear ensures the round is completely chambered and the bolt is locked before the hammer is released; insuring you don't have a premature detonation ... This is why the guy that used to sell the drop-in sear in the ShotGun News back in the 70's-80's called it a SAFETY sear and got by with it for so long ... His device, in combination with the bolt carrier and other M16 FCG parts (which he did not sell) insured your AR didn't prematurely detonate the round before being fully chambered and the bolt was locked (out of battery). It functioned just like 3rd hole M16 sear does ... without that tale-tell 3rd hole! Of course prior to May 19(?), 1986 all you had to do is register one of these SAFETY sears on a form 1 and ... WahLa, any AR could legally be transformed into a machine gun

    I still see guys selling M16 FCG's at gun shows and on GunBroker as its not illegal to own them, but it is illegal to install them unless you are installing them in a registered M16 or Registered Drop-In Sear (RDIS)

    BTW, you can legally install the M16 hammer & sear in a AR IFyou cut the hook off the hammer, AND the tail off the sear ... I knew several shooters that ... back in the day ... Before all these fancy triggers, would experiment with surplus hammers and sears, trying to make a lighter trigger, sometimes using set screws to controll over-travel ... Much like the early JPEnterprise Single-Stage Match trigger.

    Mods, if this is over the line please delete ...
    then there is the lightening link

  19. #19
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    Not exactly Krupkski ... Theoretically, if you put a m16 trigger, sear & selector in an AR ... you might create an illegal unregistered machine gun ... The sear ensures the round is completely chambered and the bolt is locked before the hammer is released; insuring you don't have a premature detonation ... This is why the guy that used to sell the drop-in sear in the ShotGun News back in the 70's-80's called it a SAFETY sear and got by with it for so long ... His device, in combination with the bolt carrier and other M16 FCG parts (which he did not sell) insured your AR didn't prematurely detonate the round before being fully chambered and the bolt was locked (out of battery). It functioned just like 3rd hole M16 sear does ... without that tale-tell 3rd hole! Of course prior to May 19(?), 1986 all you had to do is register one of these SAFETY sears on a form 1 and ... WahLa, any AR could legally be transformed into a machine gun

    I still see guys selling M16 FCG's at gun shows and on GunBroker as its not illegal to own them, but it is illegal to install them unless you are installing them in a registered M16 or Registered Drop-In Sear (RDIS)

    BTW, you can legally install the M16 hammer & sear in a AR IFyou cut the hook off the hammer, AND the tail off the sear ... I knew several shooters that ... back in the day ... Before all these fancy triggers, would experiment with surplus hammers and sears, trying to make a lighter trigger, sometimes using set screws to controll over-travel ... Much like the early JPEnterprise Single-Stage Match trigger.

    Mods, if this is over the line please delete ...
    I never said to use an M-16 sear (meaning the auto sear, not the hammer/trigger sear surfaces) or selector. I said TRIGGER since this is what the OP asked about.

    As far as a "safety sear", both the M-16 and full auto AK have them and indeed it is that part which, when tripped by the closed bolt carrier, releases the hammer to fire another round... IF the rifle also has a disconnector with the "tail" and a selector that holds the tail down AND the selector is in the "auto" position.

    Putting an M-16 trigger into an AR-15 (EVEN with the full auto disconnector, full auto hammer and relieved bolt carrier) does not make a full auto action, nor does it create a dangerous condition.

    EVEN IF you added a full auto selector, in the full auto position all you would get would be jams, slamfires or out of battery ignition. Still not a machine gun.

    You need in addition to all of the above the "auto sear" or "safety sear", it's axis pin and it's spring in order to make it real full auto.

    Since the OP only asked about the TRIGGER (and, I assume his motive is to get a proper "look" for his rifle), I (correctly) told him that an AR-15 trigger externally looks identical to an M-16 trigger and there should be no problem using the M-16 trigger because it's not a "firearm part", nor does it make the rifle full auto and, therefore, nothing to worry about.

    Why are you talking about DIAS's and other stuff irrelevant to this discussion other than to make it appear as though I am wrong?
    Last edited by Krupski; 02-05-2018 at 07:19 PM. Reason: added info
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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    I still see guys selling M16 FCG's at gun shows and on GunBroker as its not illegal to own them, but it is illegal to install them unless you are installing them in a registered M16 or Registered Drop-In Sear
    Another thing: IF it were illegal to install an M-16 trigger into an AR-15, then the mere possession of both the trigger and the rifle would be "constructive possession of a machine gun". Even if the trigger is in the dresser with your socks and the rifle is in the safe, you would still be "guilty" (if it were illegal).

    Now, if you possessed a real NFA part that wasn't registered (like a DIAS) and at the same time owned an AR-15... bingo you are a felon. No need to install the device. Merely possessing it is enough.

    Got it?
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