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Thread: Musings of an old man....

  1. #181
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    So, would I assume if light somehow traveled slower leaving the car, then it would appear to reach me slower than it really does? To me, both statements are equally wrong. The speed of light has nothing to do with it; we would see the car reach us when it reaches us.
    There is nothing special about light. People have accepted that the Theory of Relativity has given it magical powers, but all things being relative...it hasn't.

    Your example hasn't answered my question. Adding 100mph to the speed of light wouldn't change anything but the speed of light.

    What is it about light that makes it always at speed C, without regard to the velocity of the mass it originates from?
    I believe there is a simple, physical explanation, and it doesn't depend on "appearances" for an answer. I keep asking simply because I've never seen a logical answer, only answers that light is somehow magical and can do all kinds of miraculous things to keep us in the dark.

    Now, I know it might sound like I'm trying to put you down, or I sound arrogant like I'm smarter than everyone, but neither of those are true. It's just if we are to understand the speed of light, we need to understand light itself.
    The only way I can answer you, even though it sounds stupid, is to say that it is a law of physics that you cannot add to the speed of light. That's one of the things that makes light special.

    As far as seeing the car goes, you see the car because of light reflecting off of it, so therefore the speed of light allows you to see it. Since light is coming at you from the car (allowing you to see it where it is), no matter how fast it's moving, you can't add its speed to the speed of light.
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  2. #182
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Yes, I know that it is one of the laws of physics that you can't "add to the speed of light". But first, they would need a theory, an explanation, as to why that is. I'm looking to see their theory that leads them to state it is a law.
    I'm not saying light doesn't have a constant speed in a vacuum, I'm saying there has to be a logical reason. Saying light is special isn't the answer.
    Picture in your mind an object moving thru space at 30% of C. It emits a ray of light, and the speed of that ray of light is C. Picture it now...moving thru space and emits light. What special property allows it to not add the velocities together? I'll even allow "relativity/appears" to be used in your answer. You can't say it's "special" or "it's a law of physics". If anyone has a concrete conjecture on why, I'd like to hear it.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  3. #183
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    In a way, that's correct. When the light first left Andromeda, the light closer to us would have reached here first, but since the light that reaches us now has had time for the light, from the back of the galaxy has had time to reach us, it looks complete. However, if we could instantly go there, we might see that some of the stars we are able to see from earth have burned out now, and some new stars have already formed.

    Another thing to think about is could quasars be like what you described above, but the light from the backside of the galaxy hasn't had time to reach us yet? In other words, is the quasar just the closest edge of the galaxy's light just reaching us? As time goes on, will they start to appear more galaxy-like to us?

    I think quasars are believed to be the energy and mass that is just starting to form into galaxies....but, who knows for sure?
    I went on line to re-read up on quasars, as there is so much more information easily available now days. I think like you, that quasars are at the beginning formation if galaxies. It being that it is thought that there is a massive black hole at the center of most galaxies, and also at the center of quasars. I'd even wager, that it takes a black hole to have enough gravity to pull enough material together to begin the formation of first quasars, and then enough more to make a galaxy.
    So, on this, I would agree with you on that part.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  4. #184
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    http://www.askamathematician.com/201...er-than-light/

    The comments and questions that follow this short article are pretty interesting.

    All I've seen do far is people saying that nothing can go faster than light, and we made up these formulas to prove it's so.

    So, if there was a logical explanation why light speed is always C, and velocities don't add...without needing to make up formulas...then would light lose it's magical properties and not be a barrier, like sound barrier was?
    Last edited by N/A; 09-06-2018 at 11:00 PM.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  5. #185
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    How to get to Mars...a proposal.

    https://youtu.be/n9PTH-bvC2k
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  6. #186
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    A thought occurred to me today; while thinking of something completely different, I realized there is a perfect example of time slowing down when something goes faster. The great thing about it is that it has nothing to do with the. Speed of light, or relativity. It can be shown to happen at speeds as slow as 75-80 mph. Here's how it works.

    Jump in your family vehicle and head out somewhere you need to be in a hurry. No matter how fast you go, there will be a slower vehicle get in front of you. As long as you can not get around them, the miles that are flying by for them, will take hours for you as you look for a chance to pass them up. The faster you try to go, the slower those miles go by. Eventually you will hit a speed barrier that will make the miles stop going by and time comes to a standstill, as you look at those flashing red and blue lights in the rearview.

    And no, those red and blue lights are not Doppler shifted; in fact they are stationary as the outside observer gives you a legal description of your velocity...to give to the judge to see if you win.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  7. #187
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    A thought occurred to me today; while thinking of something completely different, I realized there is a perfect example of time slowing down when something goes faster. The great thing about it is that it has nothing to do with the. Speed of light, or relativity. It can be shown to happen at speeds as slow as 75-80 mph. Here's how it works.

    Jump in your family vehicle and head out somewhere you need to be in a hurry. No matter how fast you go, there will be a slower vehicle get in front of you. As long as you can not get around them, the miles that are flying by for them, will take hours for you as you look for a chance to pass them up. The faster you try to go, the slower those miles go by. Eventually you will hit a speed barrier that will make the miles stop going by and time comes to a standstill, as you look at those flashing red and blue lights in the rearview.

    And no, those red and blue lights are not Doppler shifted; in fact they are stationary as the outside observer gives you a legal description of your velocity...to give to the judge to see if you win.
    I concur.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

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    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

  8. #188
    Senior Member Viking350's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Yes, I know that it is one of the laws of physics that you can't "add to the speed of light". But first, they would need a theory, an explanation, as to why that is. I'm looking to see their theory that leads them to state it is a law.
    I'm not saying light doesn't have a constant speed in a vacuum, I'm saying there has to be a logical reason. Saying light is special isn't the answer.
    Picture in your mind an object moving thru space at 30% of C. It emits a ray of light, and the speed of that ray of light is C. Picture it now...moving thru space and emits light. What special property allows it to not add the velocities together? I'll even allow "relativity/appears" to be used in your answer. You can't say it's "special" or "it's a law of physics". If anyone has a concrete conjecture on why, I'd like to hear it.
    I only understood 1% of this but it may have some of the theoretical and mathematical explanations you seek. https://brilliant.org/wiki/special-relativity/

  9. #189
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Yes, I know that it is one of the laws of physics that you can't "add to the speed of light". But first, they would need a theory, an explanation, as to why that is. I'm looking to see their theory that leads them to state it is a law.
    The theory is special relativity. According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all conventional matter and hence all known forms of information in the universe can travel. Though this speed is most commonly associated with light, it is in fact the speed at which all massless particles and changes of the associated fields travel in vacuum (including electromagnetic radiation and gravitational waves). Such particles and waves travel at c regardless of the motion of the source or the inertial reference frame of the observer. In the special and general theories of relativity, c interrelates space and time, and also appears in the famous equation of mass–energy equivalence: E = mc2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  10. #190
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Sometimes the use of certain words just grate on my nerves; the worst being the past tense of "plead". Use to be, someone would "plead" guilty/not guilty. After the fact, it would be said they "pled" (past tense) guilty/not guilty. Only uneducated would say some " pleaded"...as past tense. Hearing "pleaded" is like fingernails on a chalkboard. But today it is the acceptable form for the past tense of "plead".

    Please, that's just so wrong. You plead your case, then later you can say you pled your case....not "I pleaded not guilty to the court.".


    Next....
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  11. #191
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    About the thread about the "probe" coming by the Earth.

    I don't particularly think this particular object is anything more than a "rock", a normal piece of space debris. But what would be so unbelievable if it was a probe? It's not like we don't have two objects traveling out into deep space, that might be found by aliens 50,000 or 100,000 years from now.

    Not all worlds will developer life along the same time line. Life could have started on another world a million years before we did. Maybe they developed intelligent life that was all one race. No black, white, red, brown or yellow "races". Maybe their society by-passed racism and bigotry because everyone was the same. That would have eliminated a lot of what hamstrings humanity.

    Maybe they were more driven to explore, create and expand their intellect than find petty reasons to start wars. If so, they would have more wealth and time to gain space flight than we put into it. There's no reason to assume they couldn't have sent out "probes", like we did hoping that some day in the future another race of beings would find it and know they aren't alone.

    If I were going to send out probes, I'd aim some of them at the center of the galaxy. That's where they will run into the increasing concentration of stars....and planets...and increased odds of intelligent life.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  12. #192
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    About the thread about the "probe" coming by the Earth.


    Maybe they were more driven to explore, create and expand their intellect than find petty reasons to start wars. If so, they would have more wealth and time to gain space flight than we put into it. There's no reason to assume they couldn't have sent out "probes", like we did hoping that some day in the future another race of beings would find it and know they aren't alone.
    This TV show kind of explains another reason they might have sent out "probes."

    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

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    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

  13. #193
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    It appears the only way people are going to get to space is thru private companies, such as Space X. The way they are funded, they can only achieve so much-so fast. If they had more investments...money coming in...they could develop things faster. Not that many people are going to invest in their stock tho, as there is only so much stock available, and once that share of stock is sold, it really doesn't bring anymore money into the company.

    They need a way to get a steady stream of money coming in. I've thought of one way; it might not be practice but I just present it for discussion.

    To buy passage on future space flights is not going to be cheap, not like a bus ride for sure. But what if Space X said they could put a small resort in orbit, and transport people to and from it for a 3 day stay for $65,000.00 each. Then, let people open accounts with Space X and start depositing money into those accounts so they could build up to the total cost.
    The accounts could be transferable to other people if the original so desired.
    Also, the accounts would be non-refundable, as the money would be going to build the infrastructure, I.e. the resort and transport to get to the resort.

    This would infuse money into private enterprise to get it done and give an incentive for people to invest. After all, if you can invest in Bitcoin to hand down to your grandkids, couldn't you invest in a future ticket to Moon Base Alpha for a grandkid to get that job on the Moon?



    Just a thought.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  14. #194
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    This TV show kind of explains another reason they might have sent out "probes.
    o]
    Six of one...half dozen of the other.

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  15. #195
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    As someone who likes to read, especially science fiction, I often wondered if I could write a book. Didn't take long to realize someone has to have the gift of gab to write. That's something I don't have. I like to state ideas as concisely as possible, which means I'm not good at even writing short stories. I was more interested in getting ideas down on paper than trying to be entertaining.

    Several years ago, one of the short stories I tried to write concerned what might happen if we were contacted by a benevolent species that was willing to let us join their community of civilizations and benefit from their advanced knowledge. I never really finished the story.
    Here lately, I was thinking about how would we, or any civilization, protect itself from being taken over by a vastly superior species. One of the ideas I came up with, was it might be best to be the very first species to arise, to achieve space flight, and begin to spread out into the galaxy.
    So let me explore this.

    We know that not all species in the galaxy will begin at the same time. The first could have sprung to life a good five hundred million years before we did. Or even fifty million years ago. Fifty million years from now, a new species could arise on some back water of the galaxy.

    What if you were the first, and managed to survive as a civilization until you reached the age of pre space flight. Naturally, like we ourselves do, you would wonder about other alien life. Would they be benevolent or conquerors? What could you do to assure your species survival? One intelligent thing to do, is to begin to work diligently into achieve space flight and interplanetary travel. Begin to colonize your solar system, while dedicating your sciences to improving all manner of space infrastructure, medicine. Dedicate yourselves to becoming more advanced decade by decade.

    At the same time you would have to maintain the equality and personal freedom of all your citizen. You would have to have a concrete plan to work forward to, and all would have to be aware of the plan and how to achieve it.

    It wouldn't matter if you could obtain faster than light travel quickly in your road to the stars. The goal is to always keep exploring and pushing out. If you have to build a ship that takes 40 years to get to the next system, then you build it. And follow it up with supply ships to enable them to get a viable toe hold in that system and survive till they could get an planet with infrastructure going.
    All theis time, you are making advancement in space travel and sciences; info you can message them to keep them from having to learn it theirselves. That puts them out there ahead of the game, and ready to make deeper exploration into space.

    It might take a few thousand years of ever improving ships spreading your species thru the universe, and you might not seem to get far, but then someday you will solve faster than light space travel, and you will be way ahead of the game.
    And then, you can really have a chance to find alien civilizations.

    Of course, any you will find will be at different stages of development. Those stages will determine how you interact with them. The ones you want to interact with are the ones who are from beginning industrialization to maybe beginning space flight. As stated, you're the oldest species in the galaxy, so no one should be ahead of you technology wise, but the time it has taken you to expand into space and achieve FTL travel, has also given later species time to evolve. You may be 100,000 years ahead of them in technology, but they are evolving and growing. But what you want to do is remember your goal, which is to make sure you hold the superior technology, which will keep you safe.

    How to do this? Why, you come as benevolent benefactors, exploring the galaxy in peace and friendship. You make contact, and once they see your peaceful intentions, you invite them to become part of your interstellar family. In return, you will begin trade with them, show them some medical advances, some nonstrategic technology. You will offer to let their best and brightest become crew members on your ships, if they will let you set up a training academy on their planet. You will let them advance in rank as they earn it.
    Also, you will share your science and technology with them, if they will open all their known science to you, so you can see where you can safely help them without destroying their economies and culture.
    You will allow them unfettered travel to your worlds, and to other member worlds.

    And they will throw themselves at your feet for having such benevolence and enlightenment. And you will keep your agreements. You will let them continue to rule their world as they see fit.


    Now, this is what you won't do. You won't let any of them who become crew members work on or around the technology that permits FTL travel. They must never learn that technology. That is how you defeat them. You strangle their search for FTL, by giving them the benefits of it, without the knowledge of it. Thus, if they ever turn on you, you just withdraw from them, and leave them destitute in isolated space. They have no where to go and no way to get there.l

    Also, what you don't do is let them know that while you're learning their sciences, you are also looking for their best and brightest thinkers. You want to identify the really gifted ones and offer them the chance to study on your worlds. That gets them off planet and under your watch.
    You are especially watching for anyone who may show that exceptional spark of genius that could lead them to discover FTL travel. Those you especially want to remove from the planet, and if they won't go....well they disappear. When it comes to protecting your monopoly on FTL travel, every option is on the table. As long as you hold the monopoly on FTL travel and make the other species dependent on you, you control the battlefield and keep your species safe.


    You have defeated them, and they never knew they were at war.






    Obviously, you have to be the elder civilization way far advanced.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  16. #196
    Guns Network Lifetime Member #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    This TV show kind of explains another reason they might have sent out "probes."

    One of my favorites, I have the whole set.

  17. #197
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Several years ago, one of the short stories I tried to write concerned what might happen if we were contacted by a benevolent species that was willing to let us join their community of civilizations and benefit from their advanced knowledge.
    Never happen. Humanity is tricky, clever and brutal because that's what it takes to survive and prosper.

    A weak, "peace loving" civilization would be devoured alive by another species (or be selected for extinction by nature).

    Any "aliens" that prospered and developed interstellar space flight would immediately turn humanity into cattle.
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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    The theory is special relativity. According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all conventional matter and hence all known forms of information in the universe can travel. Though this speed is most commonly associated with light, it is in fact the speed at which all massless particles and changes of the associated fields travel in vacuum (including electromagnetic radiation and gravitational waves). Such particles and waves travel at c regardless of the motion of the source or the inertial reference frame of the observer. In the special and general theories of relativity, c interrelates space and time, and also appears in the famous equation of mass–energy equivalence: E = mc2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light



    Imagine a long tube that you have to crawl through in order to reach the other end. Takes a certain time to make it from one end to the other.

    Now, bend the tube into a U shape with the ends near each other. Now crawl from one end of the tube to the other, OUTSIDE the tube.

    You've made the same trip, taken MUCH less time and violated no physical laws.

    As far as gravity is concerned, do you think it also acts at light speed? If you could somehow make the sun disappear, would it take 8-some minutes for earth to fly off in a straight line (rather than orbiting the sun), or would it happen instantly?
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  19. #199
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    Imagine a long tube that you have to crawl through in order to reach the other end. Takes a certain time to make it from one end to the other.

    Now, bend the tube into a U shape with the ends near each other. Now crawl from one end of the tube to the other, OUTSIDE the tube.

    You've made the same trip, taken MUCH less time and violated no physical laws.

    Of course you've violated no laws, because you have an object existing in a larger universe; I.e., just like you exist today. Your thought experiment is useless, unless you set the copper tube and its interior as the whole of existence. There would be no "outside" of the tube. The open end of the tubes would be a boundary where existence ends, a boundary beyond which nothing exist for anything to pass into.
    What you are proposing could only happen if you could enter one point inside the tube and pop out at another without traveling anywhere.
    Otherwise you just have a copper tube with no special properties existing in a larger universe.


    As far as gravity is concerned, do you think it also acts at light speed? If you could somehow make the sun disappear, would it take 8-some minutes for earth to fly off in a straight line (rather than orbiting the sun), or would it happen instantly?

    Gravity is a force, just like all the others. Even tho we don't understand how the force is formed, it propagates over distance just like any other force. If the sun disappeared, the gravity wouldn't disappear till the other forces disappeared. Not that we would have long to suffer thru it.
    .....
    Last edited by N/A; 12-12-2018 at 05:00 PM.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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