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Thread: Musings of an old man....

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    I had a hard time watching that "expert" after he gave the distance to the "edge of the universe" at 46 billion light years when actual scientists have pegged it at about 13.2 billion light years. Granted that 13.2 is as far as we can see using the Hubble Space Telescope, fixated at a single point and constantly focusing further and further. At it's maximum range the pictures returned showed billions of galaxy clusters instead of fewer and fewer items.

    And the funny thing about that experiment, when the Hubble optical assembly was completed at Perkin Elmer, the send out party had not only people from P&E and NASA but many scientists and astro-physicists. They were talking about using an open mind when the pictures came in, to take nothing based on passed ideas. One scientist then got up and talked about trying to see the end of the universe. Much to my father's dismay I stood up and asked the man to truly keep an open mind, and that if they couldn't see the end of the universe in the direction they were looking, turn the telescope around 180 degrees and again focus out, and if then you still couldn't find the end of the universe, you just proved that we on the earth are in fact the center of the universe.

    I got a lot of laughter that slowly died down as they realized the intent of my statement. The amazing thing to me that came out of that exchange, and one of the few times my father actually acknowledged my abilities, the Hubble scientists actually did what I suggested, and instead of going out as far as possible and seeing more of the same, and turning the telescope around since we obviously had to be closer to the other end, they saw exactly the same thing, focusing as far out as possible and continued to find more and more galaxies.

    Another thing that came out of the observations was not that the expansion was slowing as they expected (that preconceived thing again) they found that many galaxies were actually speeding up!

    The universe is an amazing area, and the "Big Bang" could be explained as God snapping his fingers and bang, the universe began.

    One of the things that convinced me there was no Big Bang, is your example of the Hubble telescope. If every direction you look things a speeding away from you, you must be the center of the universe. If we were, the age of the earth seems to be somewhat off.
    Also, if the Hubble was looking at a distance of 13 billion light years, and we are seeing light formed shortly after the Big Bang, then how did we get out here so fast that we beat light getting here. The only way we could see light from shortly after the Big Bang is for us to have traveled several times the speed of light to get here ahead of it and be waiting for it to catch up.

    Another thing about the father galaxies expanding away at greater speed. I think the universe is spinning, just as the Earth spins. If so, then just like on a spinning disk, the points on the edge of the disk are moving faster than a point half way in to the center. Both would move at the same RPM around the center, but their velocities would be different. I ponder on the idea that is why farther galaxies appear to be expanding at greater speed, because they are moving the fastest on the disk, but not necessarily moving away.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  2. #62
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    I had a hard time watching that "expert" after he gave the distance to the "edge of the universe" at 46 billion light years when actual scientists have pegged it at about 13.2 billion light years. Granted that 13.2 is as far as we can see using the Hubble Space Telescope, fixated at a single point and constantly focusing further and further. At it's maximum range the pictures returned showed billions of galaxy clusters instead of fewer and fewer items.
    That's the way it's supposed to be.

    Hubble Ultra Deep Space galaxies:



    Explanation of photo here:

    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140605.html

    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    And the funny thing about that experiment, when the Hubble optical assembly was completed at Perkin Elmer, the send out party had not only people from P&E and NASA but many scientists and astro-physicists. They were talking about using an open mind when the pictures came in, to take nothing based on passed ideas. One scientist then got up and talked about trying to see the end of the universe. Much to my father's dismay I stood up and asked the man to truly keep an open mind, and that if they couldn't see the end of the universe in the direction they were looking, turn the telescope around 180 degrees and again focus out, and if then you still couldn't find the end of the universe, you just proved that we on the earth are in fact the center of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    I got a lot of laughter that slowly died down as they realized the intent of my statement. The amazing thing to me that came out of that exchange, and one of the few times my father actually acknowledged my abilities, the Hubble scientists actually did what I suggested, and instead of going out as far as possible and seeing more of the same, and turning the telescope around since we obviously had to be closer to the other end, they saw exactly the same thing, focusing as far out as possible and continued to find more and more galaxies.
    This could be on account of how far we are away from everything else. Maybe we are so far away, that no matter how deep we see, the only things we're going to see are about the same number of galaxies in either direction. We are so far from the "edge" that we can't probe past the realm of galaxies that we are part of.

    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    Another thing that came out of the observations was not that the expansion was slowing as they expected (that preconceived thing again) they found that many galaxies were actually speeding up!
    It's Hubble's Law of Red Shift (the Doppler Shift is for sound, and Hubble Shift is for electromagnetic energy). If an object is moving towards us, it is blue shifted (higher pitch in Doppler); if it is moving away from us, it's red shifted (lower pitch in Doppler). If an object is stationary in relation to us, then it has no shift (constant pitch for Doppler).

    Cosmologists have shown that the deeper we look into space (with radio telescopes), all objects are red shifted. And, the farther away from us they are, the more they are red shifted. This means that the most distant objects our telescopes can see are red shifted the most (moving away from us faster).

    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    The universe is an amazing area, and the "Big Bang" could be explained as God snapping his fingers and bang, the universe began.
    Can't argue that point as it can't be proven one way or another.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    I don't think most atheists believe that the Big Bang necessarily sprang from nothing. Maybe some of the notable physicists like Stephen Hawking, but even he had came around to conjecturing about the possibility of multiverses before he finally succumbed to his illness.

    Really, the only thing atheists agree on is that there was no need for a Creator to get the ball rolling and keep things rolling. Whether energy/matter always existed, in some shape or form, is an entirely open question. One that scientists don't have a definitive answer for... yet.
    True, there is no need for a creator to create the universe, if all the material already existed. But at the same time, there is no reason an entity couldn't have taken that material, and used it to create the universe in its present form. Since we will never know until we die, you and I may, or may not, discuss this on the other side. Since I do believe there is a Great Mystery, I'm looking forward to crossing over.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    One of the things that convinced me there was no Big Bang, is your example of the Hubble telescope. If every direction you look things a speeding away from you, you must be the center of the universe. If we were, the age of the earth seems to be somewhat off.
    Yes, everything around us is red shifted, but there is a better explanation for that. There are varying degrees of red shift depending on the direction we look.

    Imagine, for the sake of argument, that we are a particle inside a bomb in a totally empty part of space (no gravity, no surfaces to interact with, etc.). The bomb has an elastic shell that will only expand, not rupture.

    Now, as long as the bomb doesn't explode, we will say that time doesn't exist, since nothing is happening; only when the bomb explodes do things happen and time starts.

    The bomb detonates and the shell expands outward from the center. Time starts now. The shell stretches farther and farther (like a balloon being inflated) outward and the particles inside the shell move away from the center, in an outward direction, also. So, our particle is now moving inside the exploding bomb away from the center, but towards the shell.

    As the space inside the exploding bomb expands outward, the center starts to become empty (everything is moving away from the center....leaving nothing behind). The shell continues to expand with the particles behind it, but the shell is moving a little faster than the particles behind it.

    Our particle, while moving away from the center, is slowing down compared to the shell, which is still expanding rapidly.

    As we look at other particles around us, those behind us are slowing down a little faster than our particle (showing up as slightly red shifted, even though they are moving in our direction). Those particles in front of us, are slowing down, too, but not as quickly as we are (they are red shifted, too). The particles farthest away from us, in the direction we are moving, are moving away from us faster than the ones closer to us (these appear to have the highest red shift).

    The shell is now so far away from us, that we can no longer see it at all.

    If you look far enough behind us you will see space emptying out.

    So, using this example of a bomb exploding, explains what we are seeing space, no matter how deeply we look, everything appears red shifted (moving away from us). The farther away it is, the more red shifted it appears (even behind us because we are moving faster than that which is behind us and slower than that which is in front of us).

    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Also, if the Hubble was looking at a distance of 13 billion light years, and we are seeing light formed shortly after the Big Bang, then how did we get out here so fast that we beat light getting here. The only way we could see light from shortly after the Big Bang is for us to have traveled several times the speed of light to get here ahead of it and be waiting for it to catch up.
    The "light" we are seeing is energy from the Big Bang that has cooled down to microwave frequencies. We are so far away from the wall (shell) that the only thing we can "see" is in microwaves. Visible light from the wall/shell is well beyond our vision (too far for even the HST to see). We are looking at the light that is left (all that's left is microwave radiation).

    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Another thing about the father galaxies expanding away at greater speed. I think the universe is spinning, just as the Earth spins. If so, then just like on a spinning disk, the points on the edge of the disk are moving faster than a point half way in to the center. Both would move at the same RPM around the center, but their velocities would be different. I ponder on the idea that is why farther galaxies appear to be expanding at greater speed, because they are moving the fastest on the disk, but not necessarily moving away.
    I hope the above explanation helps you picture why everything is moving away from us.

    I tried.
    Last edited by alismith; 05-08-2018 at 06:58 PM.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

  5. #65
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    You know, twice this evening I've tried to post a response to you, and just as I was almost done, something whacky occurred, and I lost both post before I could finish. So, I'll wait till in the morning.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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    Russians
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by l921428x View Post
    Russians
    And they didn't offer me any vodka or prostitute for my troubles.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  8. #68
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    Well they would have just peed (?) on your bed and you know their vodka is to strong.
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

    In a world of snowflakes,
    be the heat..

  9. #69
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    One of the things that convinced me there was no Big Bang, is your example of the Hubble telescope. If every direction you look things a speeding away from you, you must be the center of the universe. If we were, the age of the earth seems to be somewhat off.
    Also, if the Hubble was looking at a distance of 13 billion light years, and we are seeing light formed shortly after the Big Bang, then how did we get out here so fast that we beat light getting here. The only way we could see light from shortly after the Big Bang is for us to have traveled several times the speed of light to get here ahead of it and be waiting for it to catch up.

    Another thing about the father galaxies expanding away at greater speed. I think the universe is spinning, just as the Earth spins. If so, then just like on a spinning disk, the points on the edge of the disk are moving faster than a point half way in to the center. Both would move at the same RPM around the center, but their velocities would be different. I ponder on the idea that is why farther galaxies appear to be expanding at greater speed, because they are moving the fastest on the disk, but not necessarily moving away.


    I'm not convinced that Edwin Hubble's "constant" is all that accurate.

    The red shift from galaxies that are further away is greater, implying that they are moving away from us faster, but "redder" light is light with less energy and consequently a longer wavelength. But is it "redder" because it's doppler shifted more (because it's moving away from us faster) or have the photons simply lost some energy flying through all those light-years of mostly empty, dusty space?

    I think the universe is NOT expanding "faster and faster", but rather slowing down and it may eventually stop expanding, then begin to contract via gravity until it forms another big bang and starts the cycle again.

  10. #70
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post

    I think the universe is NOT expanding "faster and faster", but rather slowing down and it may eventually stop expanding, then begin to contract via gravity until it forms another big bang and starts the cycle again.
    That's why there's all the fuss about dark matter. Cosmologists are trying to see if there is enough dark matter to slow the expansion down, or not. If there isn't, the universe expands forever; if there is, the universe will eventually stop expanding, then start contracting.

    However, whether there is or isn't won't affect any of us...

    Actually, it doesn't bother me at all, but it would be interesting to know....

    As of yet, I haven't heard cosmologists say, definitely, one way or the other.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

  11. #71
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    Quite a few are totally dropping the dark matter theory. Started about 6 months ago.
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

    In a world of snowflakes,
    be the heat..

  12. #72
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    That's why there's all the fuss about dark matter. Cosmologists are trying to see if there is enough dark matter to slow the expansion down, or not. If there isn't, the universe expands forever; if there is, the universe will eventually stop expanding, then start contracting.

    However, whether there is or isn't won't affect any of us...

    Actually, it doesn't bother me at all, but it would be interesting to know....

    As of yet, I haven't heard cosmologists say, definitely, one way or the other.


    If the universe expands forever, in an infinite amount of time, it will become an infinitely large, zero density void at absolute zero. No light, no stars, no nuthin'

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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    He's the guy that programmed the Matrix we are in.


    Ah well then, who made the Matrix?

    What came first? The shell casing, or the bullet?

  14. #74
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    Maybe some of the notable physicists like Stephen Hawking, but even he had came around to conjecturing about the possibility of multiverses before he finally succumbed to his illness.
    Dunno. Dr. Hawking has been rather quiet lately.

  15. #75
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    If the universe expands forever, in an infinite amount of time, it will become an infinitely large, zero density void at absolute zero. No light, no stars, no nuthin'
    Yeah. It'll be real lonely then. I'm hoping there is enough dark matter to slow things down and collapse it.

    It would be nice to think we're part of a pulsating universe. (Maybe we'd all get another chance to have a world without islam and liberals.... )
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

  16. #76
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    Well, like Krupski, I don't believe the universe is expanding, as that would entail believing in the Big Bang. I don't; I would find it easier to accept a "Big Condensate" theory. That would be where everything in the universe first existed as a form of energy. That this energy was under pressure, somewhat akin to a tablespoon of water in a clear plastic coke bottle lying out in a hot Texas sun. As the bottle heats up, more and more of the water evaporates into a gas and builds up pressure. Then if you suddenly open that bottle and the pressure instantly drops, the gas condenses into water droplets in the coke bottle.

    If the universe happened the same way, then that would explain how our part of the universe was formed 13 billion light years away from another part of the universe and we have been here 13 billion years waiting for that light to reach us. No Big Bang needed to fling us out here at faster than light to beat that light here.

    I also agree with Krupski, that the red shift is not from the edge of the universe expanding away from us, but is more due to the effect of light traveling thru gravity and being slowed or weakened somewhat. That leads to a whole nother discussion about the nature of light.

    Anyway, I've had a long day for an old man, and I'm going to sleep.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  17. #77
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    Watch this it is short and thinking is changing. https://www.suspicious0bservers.org/
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

    In a world of snowflakes,
    be the heat..

  18. #78
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Well, this discussion seems to have stalled for now. Maybe next, we might discuss this thought. Does time slow down as an object reaches the speed of light, or does the object just have farther to travel?
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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    I don't know but when you are driving on the interstate at 65 and the car next to you is driving
    65 do they look strange?
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

    In a world of snowflakes,
    be the heat..

  20. #80
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Well, this discussion seems to have stalled for now. Maybe next, we might discuss this thought. Does time slow down as an object reaches the speed of light, or does the object just have farther to travel?
    N/A, go back to the video in post #56 and start at 25:20. It'll answer this question there. (It's not very long....)
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

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