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Thread: The ACLU Supporting Our Rights Again

  1. #21
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Trying to reason with LAGC over the ACLU isn't worth it. He's already swallowed the Kool-Aid.

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  2. #22
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    Trying to reason with LAGC over the ACLU isn't worth it. He's already swallowed the Kool-Aid.
    I guess I just believe in defending the rest of the Bill of Rights as well -- the Second Amendment is only one of ten enumerated in our beloved Constitution.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  3. #23
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    I guess I just believe in defending the rest of the Bill of Rights as well -- the Second Amendment is only one of ten enumerated in our beloved Constitution.
    Unfortunately the ACLU does not agree with you. They don't agree with defending the Second Amendment, they would like to see it removed, and they have no issue with it being violated. Since all rights included in the BORs support each other, by acting to undermine the Second they act to undermine them all. As already stated this is shown in the ACLU arguing that the No-Fly List should be used to restrict the Second Amendment, so to restrict the Second they also support violating the Fifth. I guess as long as they support the other 8 it is alright. But, I bet if I took a few minutes I could find examples of how they violate the other 8 as long as it provides them more political power.
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  4. #24
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    As already stated this is shown in the ACLU arguing that the No-Fly List should be used to restrict the Second Amendment, so to restrict the Second they also support violating the Fifth.
    Where are you getting this from? As far as I know the ACLU has always opposed the No-Fly list, irrespective of it being used for any other purpose, let alone depriving anyone of their right to bear arms.

    From a quick search of their site: https://www.aclu.org/issues/national...fe-no-fly-list

    That's directly from the horse's mouth. That doesn't sound like approval of the No-Fly list to me.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  5. #25
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    Where are you getting this from? As far as I know the ACLU has always opposed the No-Fly list, irrespective of it being used for any other purpose, let alone depriving anyone of their right to bear arms.

    From a quick search of their site: https://www.aclu.org/issues/national...fe-no-fly-list

    That's directly from the horse's mouth. That doesn't sound like approval of the No-Fly list to me.
    Look at actual practice. https://reason.com/blog/2015/12/07/a...st-but-is-okay
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

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  6. #26
    Site Admin & **Team Gunsnet Silver 12/2012** Richard Simmons's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    I'm not seeing the "actual practice" you're referring to? Yes, two and a half years ago a Director said the no fly list could be used as a tool but only with major reform. That's a statement and not one I agree with but has there been any actual action by the ACLU beyond this one comment from 2015?
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  7. #27
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Simmons View Post
    I'm not seeing the "actual practice" you're referring to? Yes, two and a half years ago a Director said the no fly list could be used as a tool but only with major reform. That's a statement and not one I agree with but has there been any actual action by the ACLU beyond this one comment from 2015?
    In actual practice would be
    “There is no constitutional bar to reasonable regulation of guns, and the No Fly List could serve as one tool for it, but only with major reform,” said Hina Shamsi, the director of the ACLU National Security Project.
    . In my mind this is actual action as it tells us how the ACLU is choosing what to do and not do. The ACLU is supporting the use of the No Fly List, which even with major reforms will still be a list made up by government based on concerns without the balance of due process, to push "reasonable regulation of guns". In this case "reason regulation" is denial of the Second Amendment to those on the list. I may be reading into this too much based on my bias against the ACLU, but I don't think so.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

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  8. #28
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    “There is no constitutional bar to reasonable regulation of guns, and the No Fly List could serve as one tool for it, but only with major reform,”
    I don't know, that sounds like a pretty big caveat to me. Sounds to me like that one spokesman was just trying to put people's minds at ease, those worried about "suspected terrorists" being able to so easily purchase firearms.

    I remember during the aftermath of the USA PATRIOT Act passing and the "security" climate we were in at the time, the ACLU rolled out a "Safe And Free" campaign, where they still advocated for their broad agenda of civil liberties, but chose to coach their language to assuage public fears that promoting civil liberties was at odds with promoting national security.

    It's still a delicate balance, so careful PR and putting the right spin on things helps minimize public resistance to certain agenda items, such as in this case greatly curtailing the scope and undue process of the No-Fly list.
    Last edited by LAGC; 06-24-2018 at 04:44 PM.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  9. #29
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    so careful PR and putting the right spin on things helps minimize public resistance to certain agenda items
    Exactly what I and so many conservatives are so concerned about.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  10. #30
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    I don't know, that sounds like a pretty big caveat to me. Sounds to me like that one spokesman was just trying to put people's minds at ease, those worried about "suspected terrorists" being able to so easily purchase firearms.

    I remember during the aftermath of the USA PATRIOT Act passing and the "security" climate we were in at the time, the ACLU rolled out a "Safe And Free" campaign, where they still advocated for their broad agenda of civil liberties, but chose to coach their language to assuage public fears that promoting civil liberties was at odds with promoting national security.

    It's still a delicate balance, so careful PR and putting the right spin on things helps minimize public resistance to certain agenda items, such as in this case greatly curtailing the scope and undue process of the No-Fly list.
    Right out of the Communist playbook. Couldn't have put it better myself. Cover your real agenda behind feel-good terms so no one is the wiser. This way no one will try and block their real agenda.

    The ACLU is all smoke and mirrors; their real agenda is hidden from the public.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

    "If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars

  11. #31
    Senior Member JTHunter's Avatar

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    As far as "defending" the Bill of Rights, how well would most of the BoR stand if it weren't for the 2nd to defend them all?
    “I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted. The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

  12. #32
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    As far as "defending" the Bill of Rights, how well would most of the BoR stand if it weren't for the 2nd to defend them all?
    And that, LAGC, is why the Dimocratic/Leftist/Communists are so dead-set of getting rid of the 2nd. Everything they do is meant to chip away at it until is it totally meaningless....then, they will pull out all the stops and seize control over everything.

    Once the BoR is gone, so it the US. If you're not actively fighting the Left, then you're helping their goals come to fruition.

    The ACLU is part of the Left.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

    "If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars

  13. #33
    Team GunsNet Bronze 07/2011 T2K's Avatar

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    The ACLU, like the SPLC, started out with good intentions and evolved into leftists advocacy groups. Both are useless now.

  14. #34
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T2K View Post
    The ACLU, like the SPLC, started out with good intentions and evolved into leftists advocacy groups. Both are useless now.
    That depends on your goal. If you goal is to support and defend the Constitution they are useless. If your goal is to destroy the Constitution, our form of government, and our freedoms, they are very useful. Especially if you can put the right (actually left) spin on it.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  15. #35
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Just to bring this thread back to the topic of the OP... the ACLU's official response to accusations that it is no longer defending right-wing speech:

    After the tragic events in Charlottesville, we reaffirmed our commitment to defending speech with which we disagree. The ACLU Board — the only entity with the authority to change ACLU policy — discussed Charlottesville, and no one on the staff or the board asked the board to change our policies.
    The ACLU’s Longstanding Commitment to Defending Speech We Hate

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speec...speech-we-hate
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  16. #36
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    Just to bring this thread back to the topic of the OP... the ACLU's official response to accusations that it is no longer defending right-wing speech:



    The ACLU’s Longstanding Commitment to Defending Speech We Hate

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speec...speech-we-hate
    Whatever.

    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

    "If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars

  17. #37
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    The First Amendment wouldn't be what it is today, without the ACLU there in court, continuing to fight the good fight.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  18. #38
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    The First Amendment wouldn't be what it is today, without the ACLU there in court, continuing to fight the good fight.

    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

    "If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars

  19. #39
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Your lack of concern for the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments is noted.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  20. #40
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    The First Amendment wouldn't be what it is today, without the ACLU there in court, continuing to fight the good fight.
    Didn't the ACLU help expand the definition of religion from the original which was closer to denomination to any acknowledgment of God or a Supreme Being? Wasn't this the start of prohibitions on Christmas and 10 Commandment displays? Yup, First Amendment wouldn't be the unrecognizable shell that only protects certain segments rights to free speech were it not for the ACLU. I hope they quit fighting the "good fight".
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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