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Thread: AK-47 shot groups.

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    AK-47 shot groups.

    Hello one and all. I would have started this in an AK forum, but didn't see a "general" thread, but if a mod wants to move this to an AK thread, go for it.

    That being said, I finally had some time to try some groups through my WASR 10/63. I swapped the factory stock and grip with a Magpul Zhukov folding stock and AK grip. I also used one of Midwest Industries's Gen 1 AK scope mounts and a 3-9x scope, plus stock trigger. Looking back I probably should have started at 50yd, but instead went straight to 100yd. For a rest I used a Caldwell Deadshot Shooting Bag set.

    I tried PPU 123gr FMJ, GECO 124gr FMJ, and Wolf Polyformance 123gr FMJ.....and I wasn't encouraged by my results. Note; for whatever reason when aiming I could definitely see reticle move during each heartbeat and therefore perhaps threw me off more than I thought.

    Now I know that AKs won't ever be as accurate as my ARs, but I would have been happy with a 4" groups. If anything the groups I was getting were averaging 7.5"-8"+. I did notice that the Wolf steel case did better than the two brass case though.

    Since then I've had an ALG AKT trigger installed, but haven't had a chance to do some more testing. So dear readers, I'm curious as to what kind of groups you guys have gotten out of your AKs and which ammo.

    Thanks!


    PS: Also, I must have been shouldering it wrong or something, even while using bags to rest it on, but it feels like I'm being rabbit punched in the face when I shoot; I mean my right cheek/jaw was sore for two days after shooting about 100 rounds. Am I holding it wrong or just not solid enough?
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    It's been a while since measured shot groups but I remember there were in a bout the 6-8" realm. I don't remember the ammo. Gonna have to get to the range soon and let you know what my findings are. As far as the sore cheek/jaw, I shoot a Polish underfolder and usually have no issues, unless I put about 100 rounds down range. It may not be the position you are holding the rifle but the repeated shots fired. Especially if you are going through 30 rounds a go like I usually do. Just my thoughts.

    I will try to get to the range soon and let you know.

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    Senior Member ubersoldate's Avatar

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    My Sar's, Rommy kit guns, Atlantic and lancaster AKs are pretty much 6-10 inch groups but my Vepr 545 with ALG trigger is better. I think my best was 5 inch but its been a few years.

    Not really made for bench shooting accuracy but " minute of man" they are perfect.

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    Senior Member raxar's Avatar

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    My yugo's will do much better than that, wish I could remember what size groups they were shooting.
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    Senior Member JTHunter's Avatar

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    When I got my AK before the Clinton ban went into effect, I also had some "spam cans" of mil-surp HP and FMJ ammo. I made a "sled" from 2x6s and took it to the only public range I knew (at that time) in the Busch Wildlife center in St. Chas. county, MO. With the rifle in the sled, all I had to do is pull the trigger. With BOTH ammos, of the 5 shots at 100 yds., only TWO were even on the paper !! And this was from a ChiCom "Norinco National Match" rifle. This gun has a one piece stock, a "milled" receiver (not sheet metal), the barrel is slightly longer and thicker in diameter than standard barrels, and still shoots poorly.
    At the time I did this, I had probably put less than 150 rounds through the rifle. And the manual says that the service life of the barrel is only about 6,000 rounds.
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    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Well Ak rifles are finicky often. You need to find the ammo it likes. Also I got a few of them Cryo treated, it did help improve overall accuracy. The best one I had was a Hungarian SA85M. It would do 2.5" to 3" with Silver Bear. Wolf brought in some Copper jacketed ammo at one time and that shot very well also. The standard Bi-Metal steel cased Wolf was the poorest shooting of all I tried. Golden Tiger was pretty good in most of them. The SAR-1 I had Cryo treated would do a steady 4 to 4.5". I can tell you the rear sights jump around on these rifles. When using a red dot I got much better grouping from the SAR-1, dropped the accuracy down to 3" range. I had a Norinco Mak 90, barrel was full of cutter marks inside, very rough but chrome lined. It shot like crap.

    On how you're holding it, without seeing you shoot I can't comment.

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    I've got an early Arsenal SA-93 that I put the Magpul Zhukov stock set on, a Texas Weapons top cover and a 3x optic ... 100 yards, 2 in the head, 3 in the chest


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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    I've got an early Arsenal SA-93 that I put the Magpul Zhukov stock set on, a Texas Weapons top cover and a 3x optic ... 100 yards, 2 in the head, 3 in the chest

    Technically, that is two in the chin!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    Technically, that is two in the chin!
    Noted, as long as he has a fat chin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woogiebear View Post
    It's been a while since measured shot groups but I remember there were in a bout the 6-8" realm. I don't remember the ammo. Gonna have to get to the range soon and let you know what my findings are. As far as the sore cheek/jaw, I shoot a Polish underfolder and usually have no issues, unless I put about 100 rounds down range. It may not be the position you are holding the rifle but the repeated shots fired. Especially if you are going through 30 rounds a go like I usually do. Just my thoughts.

    I will try to get to the range soon and let you know.
    So far I'm also on average getting mostly 6-8" groups, but there has been a flash of potential here and there. So far I've only tried Wolf Polyformance 123gr fmj, PPU 123gr fmj, and GECO 124gr fmj., all with using the original trigger (Tapco I'm guessing). As far as feeling like I'm getting punched in the face after each shot, still happens. I doubt it's the number of rounds shot because I can shoot my .308 AR the same number of times for groups and not get a sore cheek. The "punching" occurred both with the original wood stock it came with and the Magpul Zhukov stock I have on it now (for LoP adjustability).
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by ubersoldate View Post
    My Sar's, Rommy kit guns, Atlantic and lancaster AKs are pretty much 6-10 inch groups but my Vepr 545 with ALG trigger is better. I think my best was 5 inch but its been a few years.

    Not really made for bench shooting accuracy but " minute of man" they are perfect.
    I totally agree that AKs are not meant for bench rest shooting, but am I asking too much for groups to be smaller than 6" at 100yd? I've had the trigger swapped out for an ALG as well, but haven't had time to try it out again.

    Also, congrats on your upcoming move to Idaho. My dad was stationed there when I was a kid, and from the pics I've seen I'd love to go back to site-see.
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    When I got my AK before the Clinton ban went into effect, I also had some "spam cans" of mil-surp HP and FMJ ammo. I made a "sled" from 2x6s and took it to the only public range I knew (at that time) in the Busch Wildlife center in St. Chas. county, MO. With the rifle in the sled, all I had to do is pull the trigger. With BOTH ammos, of the 5 shots at 100 yds., only TWO were even on the paper !! And this was from a ChiCom "Norinco National Match" rifle. This gun has a one piece stock, a "milled" receiver (not sheet metal), the barrel is slightly longer and thicker in diameter than standard barrels, and still shoots poorly.
    At the time I did this, I had probably put less than 150 rounds through the rifle. And the manual says that the service life of the barrel is only about 6,000 rounds.
    Dang.
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetzenman View Post
    Well Ak rifles are finicky often. You need to find the ammo it likes. Also I got a few of them Cryo treated, it did help improve overall accuracy. The best one I had was a Hungarian SA85M. It would do 2.5" to 3" with Silver Bear. Wolf brought in some Copper jacketed ammo at one time and that shot very well also. The standard Bi-Metal steel cased Wolf was the poorest shooting of all I tried. Golden Tiger was pretty good in most of them. The SAR-1 I had Cryo treated would do a steady 4 to 4.5". I can tell you the rear sights jump around on these rifles. When using a red dot I got much better grouping from the SAR-1, dropped the accuracy down to 3" range. I had a Norinco Mak 90, barrel was full of cutter marks inside, very rough but chrome lined. It shot like crap.

    On how you're holding it, without seeing you shoot I can't comment.
    From all the reading and videos I've watched, finicky can be an understatement, lol. I agree about trying different types of ammo (bought a box of Tula that I have yet to try). How much is it to cryo a barrel? Of the three types of ammo I've tried (listed above), the Wolf actually had the best results.

    As far as me holding it, I don't think I'm doing anything different than holding any other rifle I shoot . I have noticed that when using the iron sights I really have to press my face down on the stock (Zhukov) to get my eye to line up the sights. I went with the Zhukov for the adjustability and being able to install cheek risers when using a scope for group testing, or for when I finally decide to put a red dot or low power variable on it. But when I do that, using the irons is almost moot because I wouldn't be able to get my face low enough due to said riser. Oh well. I'll keep tinkering. Perhaps I should try a cheek pad of some sort? Thinking I'll put the wood stock back on and try it that way again to compare again. I don't like the factory wood stock because it feels too short for me, but I am aware that there are longer versions made.

    I'll take a peek down the barrel and see if I can see any burrs or anything.
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberkid View Post
    I've got an early Arsenal SA-93 that I put the Magpul Zhukov stock set on, a Texas Weapons top cover and a 3x optic ... 100 yards, 2 in the head, 3 in the chest

    If I would have gotten more groups like the ones you have in the head, I'd be content. What type of ammo did you use?
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member raxar's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewbieAKguy View Post
    So far I'm also on average getting mostly 6-8" groups, but there has been a flash of potential here and there. So far I've only tried Wolf Polyformance 123gr fmj, PPU 123gr fmj, and GECO 124gr fmj., all with using the original trigger (Tapco I'm guessing). As far as feeling like I'm getting punched in the face after each shot, still happens. I doubt it's the number of rounds shot because I can shoot my .308 AR the same number of times for groups and not get a sore cheek. The "punching" occurred both with the original wood stock it came with and the Magpul Zhukov stock I have on it now (for LoP adjustability).
    I bought a bunch of the geco because it was on sale and I wanted the cases, out of the AR it wasn't any better than the wolf fodder.
    "I didn't even expect him to come up here, thinking it was that sweet. Thinking it's that candy land like that," White said. "He wanted to pickpocket everybody. But people out here, they weren't going for none of that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Spambot
    We careered round and round for perhaps an hour, flying rather than floating, getting gradually more and more into the middle of the surge, and then nearer and nearer to its horrible inner edge.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROCK ME AMADEUS
    Then Use the motherfucking PURPLE ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewbieAKguy View Post
    If I would have gotten more groups like the ones you have in the head, I'd be content. What type of ammo did you use?
    Wolf Performance

    2_A760_C50-_DBED-41_B0-8507-_AA8_C378_F1_A7_E.jpg
    Last edited by kimberkid; 10-07-2018 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raxar View Post
    I bought a bunch of the geco because it was on sale and I wanted the cases, out of the AR it wasn't any better than the wolf fodder.
    I bought 10 boxes of the GECO when AIM Surplus initially had it for sale at a reduced price ($7 or $8 a box I think) to try some brass cased that wasn't ridiculously priced like WWB at Wal-Mart.
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    In the for what it's worth category, the original specs for the Avtomat Kalashnikova called for an 8 inch group at 150 yards. Knowing what was supposed to be in the sights, an 8 inch group at that distance would work just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    In the for what it's worth category, the original specs for the Avtomat Kalashnikova called for an 8 inch group at 150 yards. Knowing what was supposed to be in the sights, an 8 inch group at that distance would work just fine.
    I call that "Being able to shoot at the capability of the weapon" ...
    I was in my early twenty's, first firearms I bought after I moved away from home. Dad had a Remington 308 and a Winchester 243. But these were my first couple of rifles, they were old surplus guns that I picked out of a barrel at a hardware store. One was a long ass 303 Enfield, the other a Enfield Jungle Carbine which I'd only seen in Shotgun News. I thought they should be more accurate than they were because they were "Military Rifles" I was young and dumb. The long Enfield shot 6" - 8" groups at 100, and the carbine was worse about 8" - 10" if I remember correctly, and my eyes were much better 40 years ago. I kept shooting it off the bench trying to get better out of it, after a while an old guy looked through his spotting scope and said that when I can shoot a group like that off-hand, kneeling or prone it was time to get a better rifle and/or start hand-loading, He broke it down and finally I understood.
    Last edited by kimberkid; 10-13-2018 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    In the for what it's worth category, the original specs for the Avtomat Kalashnikova called for an 8 inch group at 150 yards. Knowing what was supposed to be in the sights, an 8 inch group at that distance would work just fine.
    Interesting. And yet the rear sight is graduated out to 1000m. Quite curious the thinking between the two.
    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. ... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."--Thomas Jefferson

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