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Thread: Was watching a youtube vid about the moon. Very interesting stuff.

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    Moderator & Team Gunsnet Platinum 07/2011 O.S.O.K.'s Avatar

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    Was watching a youtube vid about the moon. Very interesting stuff.

    The most interesting thing that was covered is that when we were making lunar landings, we brought a couple of seismographs and placed them. Then, on a subsequent mission, the booster module that lifted the lander off of the moon was slammed down onto the surface of the moon. And, the result was that the moon resonated like a bell for 3 hours.

    This is documented by NASA.

    It is also well documented that while the moon's surface rocks are of the same stuff found here on earth, the moon's mass is much much less dense than the earth.

    Some scientists have speculated that the moon is actually hollow - with a crust of 20-30 miles all around. Weird.

    The other interesting thing pointed-out is that the moons's existence - it's origin is still not explained. Apparently the theory that it split-off from the earth has been disproven. And the other theory that it was "captured" also does not make sense. The moon has also been shown to actually be older than the earth itself..... also weird.

    In addition, it has a tidal orbit - with the same side of the moon always facing the earth, and an orbit that stabilizes the earth's weather. Further, the moon is 1/400th the size of the sun and is positioned such that when it eclipses the sun, it exactly covers the sun as seen from earth - no more, no less. Again, very weird.

    There were other ideas postulated - but they venture into the "conspiracy" side of things, so I won't go there. Everything I just mentioned is fact or scientific theory.

    But it definitely makes you wonder.
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    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    So, if it's hollow, how does it have enough gravity to be one-sixth as strong as Earth's gravity...nor how has it retained its integrity after major meteor impacts over a few million years?
    As less dense, well, I don't ever recall hearing it has an iron core, like the Earth has. If the Earth didn't have an iron core, it would be less dense...which is just common sense.
    Again, if the Moon were hollow, it wouldn't have enough mass to retain its orbit, but would have succumbed to Earth's gravity long ago....and far away.
    Also, the mid-point between the Earth and Moon's gravity lies beneath the Earth's surface shows it has significant mass. Otherwise, if the moon were hollow, the mid-point would lie somewhere on/within the Moon. As the Moon always has the same face toward Earth, that mid-point would always be in the same spot on the moon, and after several million years would have pulled a hollow Moon out of shape...more than likely causing it to crack and come apart.

    And as an idle musing, maybe after a few billion years of burning off mass, the Sun is just now small enough to be covered by the Moon during an eclipse. Give it another few billion years of burning off mass and it might be small enough to be completely hid, with the corona not even visible. Or maybe, with all the stars and planets in the universe, and the mathematical possibilities that anything can happen somewhere, we turned out to be the lucky ones for a change. After all, other planets thru out the universe can have more than one moon and amazing night skies, but we just have the one...but one of the few that produces a full solar eclipse. Dang, we are the lucky ones.
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    Senior Member whiskeyman's Avatar

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    " the result was that the moon resonated like a bell for 3 hours." I will venture a guess that plants, water and a population would stop that.

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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.S.O.K. View Post
    The most interesting thing that was covered is that when we were making lunar landings, we brought a couple of seismographs and placed them. Then, on a subsequent mission, the booster module that lifted the lander off of the moon was slammed down onto the surface of the moon. And, the result was that the moon resonated like a bell for 3 hours.

    This is documented by NASA.

    It is also well documented that while the moon's surface rocks are of the same stuff found here on earth, the moon's mass is much much less dense than the earth.

    Some scientists have speculated that the moon is actually hollow - with a crust of 20-30 miles all around. Weird.

    NASA also purposely impacted several of the S-IV-B (third stage of the Saturn V) onto the moon to help calibrate the seismometers left by the astronauts.


    Impact photo of the Apollo 16 third stage booster.




    As far as the moon being "hollow"... if it were it's density would be so low that it would collapse into a smaller diameter, denser ball under it's own gravity.
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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Again, if the Moon were hollow, it wouldn't have enough mass to retain its orbit, but would have succumbed to Earth's gravity long ago....and far away.

    What????????


    ANYTHING will stably orbit the earth (or any other body) as long as it has sufficient velocity. Density or mass is not relevant.

    Of course, the earth (and more so the moon) have mass concentrations which perturb stable orbits, and solar wind is another factor as well as (on earth) minute wisps of the atmosphere creating drag.

    Of the earth and moon, the BIGGEST factor is the tidal coupling between the two which slows down earth's rotation rate and adds energy to the moon's orbit (making it slowly move away from us - about 1.5 inches per year).

    Remember the Echo 1 satellite? It was just a big aluminized mylar balloon (not much mass there) and it orbited fine... until solar wind and wispy traces of the earth's atmosphere finally wrecked it's orbit about 5 years later.

    Where did you get that something needs "enough mass" to orbit a body?
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    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Geeze, Krupski, read...and comprehend. The moon has to have sufficient mass, at sufficient velocity, to be in its present orbit. If it were hollow, it would change one of those factors and it couldn't be in the orbit it's presently in. Like Echo 1, it was calculated to be in a certain orbit according to its weight and velocity.

    Think of gravity as a string hooked to a golf ball as you twirl it around and around. The string keeps it from flying off, the velocity keeps you from hitting yourself in the head. Hollow out that golf ball, and you can still twirl it around, but the dynamics are all changed. You have to twirl the hollow golf ball faster to keep the string taut as it doesn't have enough mass
    Same with the moon. Hollow it out and take away most of its mass, and it wouldn't have enough mass and velocity to overcome Earth's gravity over a few million years time. A hollow Moon couldn't exist as we presently see it in its orbit.
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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    So many coincidences, almost like it was designed and positioned to help stabilize earth. Luckily we are educated enough to know it happened by mere chance.
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    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    So many coincidences, almost like it was designed and positioned to help stabilize earth. Luckily we are educated enough to know it happened by mere chance.
    Or as Bill O'Reilly famously opined: "The tide rolls in, the tide rolls out. No one knows the reason why. It's a mystery of God."
    Last edited by LAGC; 10-01-2018 at 08:00 PM.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

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    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Geeze, Krupski, read...and comprehend. The moon has to have sufficient mass, at sufficient velocity, to be in its present orbit. If it were hollow, it would change one of those factors and it couldn't be in the orbit it's presently in. Like Echo 1, it was calculated to be in a certain orbit according to its weight and velocity.

    Think of gravity as a string hooked to a golf ball as you twirl it around and around. The string keeps it from flying off, the velocity keeps you from hitting yourself in the head. Hollow out that golf ball, and you can still twirl it around, but the dynamics are all changed. You have to twirl the hollow golf ball faster to keep the string taut as it doesn't have enough mass
    Same with the moon. Hollow it out and take away most of its mass, and it wouldn't have enough mass and velocity to overcome Earth's gravity over a few million years time. A hollow Moon couldn't exist as we presently see it in its orbit.
    mass of the satellite doesnt matter. Fgravity = G(mearth * mmoon)/r^2; centripetal force is imaginary force required to cause object to rotate rather than travel a straight line, in this case is due to gravity. Fcentripetal = (mmoon*v^2)/r

    Set them equal and the mass of the moon cancels and so does one of the radii. If you want the velocity required to keep an object in orbit at a certain distance; v=sqrt(G*mearth/r)


    this doesn't take into account relativistic effects but unless this is a GPS satellite you don't really care and this answer is close enough.

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    Guns Network Lifetime Member #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    So many coincidences, almost like it was designed and positioned to help stabilize earth. Luckily we are educated enough to know it happened by mere chance.
    Considering the chances of life even developing here, it's obvious. "Tornado in a junkyard" does a fine job at pointing out how flawed theories are for men to assume a lot of things just because they repeat them enough times......

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    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    mass of the satellite doesnt matter.
    Ok, if mass doesn't matter, let us replace the Moon with Saturn, in the exact same orbitital distance and velocity. That would make for a better night time show, tho we would miss those full solar eclipses.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    "Tornado in a junkyard"
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hoyle%27s_fallacy

    "If life is comparable to a tornado running rampant through a junkyard and forming a Boeing 747 then God must be like a tornado running through a junkyard and forming the entire British Airways fleet and then some."

    Last edited by LAGC; 10-01-2018 at 12:09 PM.
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Geeze, Krupski, read...and comprehend. The moon has to have sufficient mass, at sufficient velocity, to be in its present orbit. If it were hollow, it would change one of those factors and it couldn't be in the orbit it's presently in.

    ANY object, of ANY size or mass could orbit the earth in precisely the moon's orbital path. There is no "couldn't".

    It would only need the correct energy (orbital velocity) for it's mass, whatever it was.

    Think of orbit like this: Imagine you are standing on a very tall tower on a planet with no air (that is, no drag).

    Now, fire a cannon at the horizon. The cannon ball will fly out and at the same time fall to the ground some distance later.

    Now, add more "power" to the cannon. The ball will fly much further but still fall to the ground. The CURVATURE of this planet helps a bit as well, because the ground "falls away" from the cannon ball, delaying it's impact with the ground.

    Add even more power. Soon you reach a point where the cannon ball flies away from you, AND the curvature of the planet falls away from the cannon ball at the same exact rate as it's falling.

    The cannon ball is now in a CIRCULAR ORBIT and will eventually come all the way around the planet and whack you in the back.

    Add EVEN MORE energy. Now the ball flies faster than the planet curves away and the ball appears to climb HIGHER until it reaches the "top of the hill" (exactly 180 degrees away from where it was fired - called the apoapsis or referring to the earth, "apogee"). Then it begins to come back "downhill" and again, eventually, returns to it's point of origin (periapsis or "perigee" for the earth), only to go around again, infinitely.

    This is called an ELLIPTICAL orbit.

    Finally add more energy and the cannon ball flies away and climbs away from the planet at a speed that the gravity of the planet cannot pull it back "down the hill".

    This is called ESCAPE VELOCITY. The ball will never return.

    Surely you aren't going to tell me that a hammer falls faster than a feather?
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    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Ok, if mass doesn't matter, let us replace the Moon with Saturn, in the exact same orbitital distance and velocity. That would make for a better night time show, tho we would miss those full solar eclipses.

    Not a problem at all.

    We WOULD, however, have hella tides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    Considering the chances of life even developing here, it's obvious. "Tornado in a junkyard" does a fine job at pointing out how flawed theories are for men to assume a lot of things just because they repeat them enough times......
    In a million years, junk yards will be teeming with transformer life!

    according to evolution
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

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    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    Not a problem at all.

    We WOULD, however, have hella tides.
    Not a problem, huh? So, if we put Saturn in the exact same orbit and velocity of the Moon, an astronomer would be able to observe either one and deduce they both have the same mass? Isn't that how they deduce the mass of the other planets and Moon's in the Solar System? They use the mechanics of their orbits....speed, distance, et cetera,...to determine their mass, don't they?
    Replace the Moon with a hollow Moon, and you're saying it would have the same exact same orbit as the Moon has now? If that were so, then astronomers couldn't figure a body's mass from its orbital characteristic. It could have any mass and they couldn't tell.

    But they regularly figure out a body's mass using its orbital characteristic, thus mass does matter. Which to the original question/idea in the opening post....can the moon be hollow....no, not by the orbital characteristics it has. If it was hollow, it would have different orbital characteristics, which astronomers would note and deduce the Moon was a hollow, sphere.
    Otherwise, there is no reason to believe they can observe the orbit of Jupiter around Sun and deduce its mass. After all, a hollow Jupiter would display the exact same orbital mechanics...so how would they tell the difference.

    It would be akin to having a cat in a box. Is it in there or not? Is it alive or dead?
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

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    Senior Member NAPOTS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski View Post
    Not a problem at all.

    We WOULD, however, have hella tides.
    Sine interesting things might happen if the satellite was much more massive than the object that it is rotating. One I would imagine that the radius at which the orbit was stable was very sensitive, small peturbatons caused by other objects in the solar system could throw it out of wacky and cause it to either fly away or the two to crash into each other. Also those tidal forces would probably be so strong at that distance that the earth would liquidify or even tear itself apart. The system might decay into one where the two rotate together about their common system center of mass. Also that tidal action causing the earth to heat up will consume energy so angular momentum won't be conserved and the orbit will decay. Is probably not a very kinematically stable system which is probably why we don't see many example of it in nature

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    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAPOTS View Post
    Sine interesting things might happen if the satellite was much more massive than the object that it is rotating. One I would imagine that the radius at which the orbit was stable was very sensitive, small peturbatons caused by other objects in the solar system could throw it out of wacky and cause it to either fly away or the two to crash into each other. Also those tidal forces would probably be so strong at that distance that the earth would liquidify or even tear itself apart. The system might decay into one where the two rotate together about their common system center of mass. Also that tidal action causing the earth to heat up will consume energy so angular momentum won't be conserved and the orbit will decay. Is probably not a very kinematically stable system which is probably why we don't see many example of it in nature

    So you are saying that the moon causes tides which cause the earth to warm up? So we need to blow the moon up quickly so that they can continue to say the earth is warming due to man made stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    In a million years, junk yards will be teeming with transformer life!

    according to evolution
    Indeed, I just hope I can get one, be the first kid on my block to have one to crush neighbors I hate........ Damn I hope i get one of the mean ones.
    Last edited by 1 Patriot-of-many; 10-01-2018 at 11:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hoyle%27s_fallacy

    "If life is comparable to a tornado running rampant through a junkyard and forming a Boeing 747 then God must be like a tornado running through a junkyard and forming the entire British Airways fleet and then some."

    Ever read the book? This is my challenge LAGC, dispute all the evidence presented by the book after you read it..

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