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Thread: National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC)

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC)

    I wanted to pass along a conversation I had with a very liberal friend on FB (I know, just leave, not going to happen so no reason to discuss!). I am providing this so people can see that the NPVIC is not constitutional, for multiple reasons, and those supporting it are trying to destroy our representative republic. While I am sure you all realize this, this provides the constitutional reasoning as to why.

    My opening:
    It is funny to me all the articles written in the wake of the election accusing Republicans of trying to "destroy democracy." What is truly funny is that when Democrats have actually tried to circumvent the democratic process by fabricating evidence to impeach Trump the first time and remove him from office this is ignored. And then trying a second time with no evidence to ensure he cannot run again though almost half of the country voted for him and many millions more than last time voted for him. Why does the press not see this as attempts to destroy democracy. It is almost as if they believe that only Republicans can destroy it. Well, at least they are not biased.
    A friend replied that the NPVIC was another example of how Democrats are attempting to destroy democracy. My liberal friend (who by the way is a retired naval officer I served with) states:
    Of note this is not unconstitutional because as the Constitution states
    "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States shall be appointed an Elector."

    If a legislature decides to award electors based on the national popular vote it is their right to do so. Just because you may not like the results doesn’t make the decision of a state legislature unconstitutional.
    Here is my last response:
    I have to ask, have you actually read the Constitution, or do you just post stuff you find that sounds good without applying any critical thought?

    It is actually a violation of Article 1, section 10, clause 3 which states “No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.” As the states trying to do this do not have the consent of Congress, they are violating the Constitution.

    Now to your point, which is quoted from Article II, section 1, clause 2. The words specifically state that “Each state shall appoint in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct”. It does not say that “Each state my delegate to another state the appointment of electors.” Each state decides for itself who it is voting for and how those votes are to be distributed. To allow another state, or states, to make this decision for them is to undermine the very heart of the Constitution, which is the formation of a representative republic. To do what you are proposing would require a constitutional amendment.

    You know what makes me sad about this answer? Knowing that I have provided it to you before and you still bring up the same misquoted and proven wrong argument. And I expect that you will answer as you did last time I showed your position on this to be unconstitutional. With silence.
    If you are wondering how our interchange ended. It was as I predicted, silence from him.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

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    It sucks being wrong. Usually they resort to name calling at that point(nazi and white supremacist win the day now) but silence is golden.

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    Senior Member Oswald Bastable's Avatar

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    All too late anyway. The republic is already dead.

    We're now under one party, commie rule, the capital is protected by walls and troops because they fear revolt, and while they may let a RINO win an election or two (just for show) there will never be a conservative majority in any branch of the national gov't. again.
    If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    It sucks being wrong. Usually they resort to name calling at that point(nazi and white supremacist win the day now) but silence is golden.
    The person I was talking with has done that. He goes with racist and saying I am unpatriotic. He also warned me that when Biden won he was going to turn me it. I asked for what. He never responded.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    The person I was talking with has done that. He goes with racist and saying I am unpatriotic. He also warned me that when Biden won he was going to turn me it. I asked for what. He never responded.
    He's going to rat on you because you're a conservative, and, to the Commucrats, that means you're a terrorist to their political point of views.

    It sounds like he had some inside info when he stated, "when Biden won." I'm guessing only conservatives didn't know, beforehand, that the Commucrats were going to steal this election.

    p.s.- This guy doesn't sound like much of a friend....
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    The person I was talking with has done that. He goes with racist and saying I am unpatriotic. He also warned me that when Biden won he was going to turn me it. I asked for what. He never responded.
    Incredible. How many years in do you have now serving your country.... Then calls you unpatriotic. The world is upside down.

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    Incredible. How many years in do you have now serving your country.... Then calls you unpatriotic. The world is upside down.
    Not really surprising. All Commucrats are irrational and insane. After all, they base using a restroom on feelings rather than plumbing. Kind of hard reasoning with people with that kind of mental deficiency.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Patriot-of-many View Post
    Incredible. How many years in do you have now serving your country.... Then calls you unpatriotic. The world is upside down.
    And remember, this guy is a retired naval officer as well. He served 20 years and retired as a Commander. It is amazing his disregard for the Constitution.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    I will report that this guy responded, which is quite unusual. In his response, though, he still showed a lack of critical thought, and a shallowness of understanding that is should be a condemnation of the public school system of which he is a product.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    So, here is his response to me.
    Did the states sign an agreement which would be illegal and I agree with that if they did or did each state legislature approve a concept? I have not seen anything about a compact or an agreement but only legislatures adopting the same concept. Legally not a compact.
    And my answer.
    Ok, since you obviously have not looked at or read what you are arguing for, but are arguing from what you read about it on the internet, I will do the research for you. We will start with the actual title which is ““Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote.” Next, here is the wording of Article 1 – Membership: “Any State of the United States and the District of Columbia may become a member of this agreement by enacting this agreement.” Which leads Ballotpedia to summarize the NPVIC by saying “The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) is an interstate compact to award member states' presidential electors to the candidate that receives the most votes nationwide. The NPVIC would go into effect if states representing at least 270 electoral college votes adopt the legislation.” You have to be willfully ignorant or dishonest to say this is not an agreement between states. Especially as the title and the first article state that it is an agreement. As this is an agreement, despite your assertion, it does meet the requirements of the Constitution to be approved by Congress. It is unconstitutional.

    To your second point, the compact states that it does not go into force until it is passed by enough states to ensure they have the electoral votes necessary to win. Why would they do this? Because it is useless before that. However, each state that has passed this have agreed that when enough states have passed this to add up to 270 electoral votes it becomes binding. This is not a concept, they agreeing that action will be taken when enough states have approved it. This meets the legal, conceptual, and operative definition of a compact and again, without congressional approval is unconstitutional.

    I notice that you ignore that this will totally negate democracy and will destroy the representative republic that our Constitution creates, thus destroying the Constitution. How does it negate democracy? The votes of those on the west coast will be negated by the way states votes on the east coast as the east coast counts their votes first. If we take the election of George Bush 2004, California, Washington and Oregon voted overwhelmingly for Secretary Kerry, but based on the NPVIC their votes would be nullified and the states would assign their electors to Bush, totally ignoring how their states voted even while the votes are still being counted.

    What we see in the preceding discussion is a couple of things. First, you have not read what you are arguing for and supporting, and if you did, you did not understand it. Second, your support for the Constitution and what it says and stands for is lacking. Third, that your understanding of the Constitution is minimal. And lastly, you are willing to destroy the democratic process of our representative republic in the hopes that your party will be able to gain and hold power. While all are concerning, this last point is particularly disheartening for someone who spent over 20 years promising to uphold and defend the Constitution. It is disheartening as it shows you are willing to destroy the Constitution for political gain.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Superb reply. Can't be stated any clearer or simpler than that.

    Just remember, you can explain it to him, but you can't understand/comprehend it for him.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    Superb reply. Can't be stated any clearer or simpler than that.

    Just remember, you can explain it to him, but you can't understand/comprehend it for him.
    '!

    You ain't kiddin'!
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Senior Member Oswald Bastable's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    '!

    You ain't kiddin'!

    I note you haven't replied to my offering in this thread...

    May I infer you therefore agree with my assessment of where the country stands?
    If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswald Bastable View Post
    I note you haven't replied to my offering in this thread...

    May I infer you therefore agree with my assessment of where the country stands?
    I did not reply because I figured it would take too long. I do not agree, though I do think we are in trouble. That my friend, a retired naval officer, would have so little regard for the Constitution is of great concern (as I wrote to him). And we are not under one party rule, because we have not gotten rid of the filibuster (though it is perverted from its original use and intent). And many states had more Republicans, and more conservative leaning Republicans, elected to their legislatures. No, we are not under one party rule, if we were Biden would not have to resort to executive orders to try to do stuff. I just wish that the Republicans would sue to block some of his orders, like the one for the Paris Climate Accord, for being unconstitutional like the Democrats did with Trump.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    I did not reply because I figured it would take too long. I do not agree, though I do think we are in trouble. That my friend, a retired naval officer, would have so little regard for the Constitution is of great concern (as I wrote to him). And we are not under one party rule, because we have not gotten rid of the filibuster (though it is perverted from its original use and intent). And many states had more Republicans, and more conservative leaning Republicans, elected to their legislatures. No, we are not under one party rule, if we were Biden would not have to resort to executive orders to try to do stuff. I just wish that the Republicans would sue to block some of his orders, like the one for the Paris Climate Accord, for being unconstitutional like the Democrats did with Trump.
    Nor, would we still have a fence around the Capitol and Nat Guard troops surrounding it to keep us out.

    They deliberately "forget" that that Capitol Building belongs to "We The People" and not just to the Commucrats. Not only did they steal the election, but they stole the Capitol Building, too.
    "Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."

    "Never say, "gun control" but instead say, "victim disarmament." - L Neil Smith

    Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.

    Freedom isn't free.

    "Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.

    My Spirit Animal has rabies.

    I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.

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    Senior Member JTHunter's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    Nor, would we still have a fence around the Capitol and Nat Guard troops surrounding it to keep us out.

    They deliberately "forget" that that Capitol Building belongs to "We The People" and not just to the Commucrats. Not only did they steal the election, but they stole the Capitol Building, too.
    Well put !
    “I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted. The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

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    Senior Member Oswald Bastable's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    I did not reply because I figured it would take too long. I do not agree, though I do think we are in trouble. That my friend, a retired naval officer, would have so little regard for the Constitution is of great concern (as I wrote to him). And we are not under one party rule, because we have not gotten rid of the filibuster (though it is perverted from its original use and intent). And many states had more Republicans, and more conservative leaning Republicans, elected to their legislatures. No, we are not under one party rule, if we were Biden would not have to resort to executive orders to try to do stuff. I just wish that the Republicans would sue to block some of his orders, like the one for the Paris Climate Accord, for being unconstitutional like the Democrats did with Trump.
    However, they've shown they can steal the presidency and the senate, and get away with it. Now they just hone their skills, make it easier (like with the national mail in voting act they're trying to pass) and within the next few years only token rinos will ever get elected. They've learned from Stalin that it's who counts the votes that matters and they have the media and masters of the universe in their back pockets.

    I still submit my original statements are factual.
    If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswald Bastable View Post
    However, they've shown they can steal the presidency and the senate, and get away with it. Now they just hone their skills, make it easier (like with the national mail in voting act they're trying to pass) and within the next few years only token rinos will ever get elected. They've learned from Stalin that it's who counts the votes that matters and they have the media and masters of the universe in their back pockets.

    I still submit my original statements are factual.
    This has not been proven, though I do have grave concerns that it will be. And if it is I will do my best to ensure the news gets out, unlike how the Democrats and MSM managed to bury how Senator Franken was elected by fraudulent and illegal votes. This time we are watching. But if we jump the gun and talk in absolutes before it has been proven then we distract from the actual problems that were in this election that we can prove (ie states and counties unconstitutionally changing voting laws, mismanaged and uncontrolled ballots and counting procedures, etc). We can prove those things but at the moment we cannot prove it was substantial enough to have actually changed the outcome.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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    Senior Member Oswald Bastable's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    This has not been proven, though I do have grave concerns that it will be. And if it is I will do my best to ensure the news gets out, unlike how the Democrats and MSM managed to bury how Senator Franken was elected by fraudulent and illegal votes. This time we are watching. But if we jump the gun and talk in absolutes before it has been proven then we distract from the actual problems that were in this election that we can prove (ie states and counties unconstitutionally changing voting laws, mismanaged and uncontrolled ballots and counting procedures, etc). We can prove those things but at the moment we cannot prove it was substantial enough to have actually changed the outcome.
    Ahh...so you're telling me that potatohead Joe got more votes than 0bama in either of his two elections, and more than Hitlery did in 2016, a guy who was lucky to get 50 people at any of his rallies while the Donald had 10s of thousands. And that you'll also ignore the 80 plus affidavits of witnesses (which they could potentially go to jail for if found to be lying) of counting, computing errors, illegal votes, hours long counting hiatus's before huge ballot dumps in the early morning hours in "EVERY SINGLE SWING STATE THAT MATTERED!!!".

    Boy, have I got a bridge to sell you...

    Here's what I'd like to know...

    Why haven't the military intervened, given they have pledged to the constitution? And given the optics, info and legal basis shows this election was totally fraudulent, and frankly my guess is that even CA went for Trump, but of course that state was not in play so no one will question any shenanigans there...why will our military not intervene to stop the destruction of the US, which is what the left is orchestrating...

    Things what make you go hmmm...

    And exemplifies your navy comrade's (comrade is, unfortunately accurate here) perspective.
    Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 02-21-2021 at 04:30 PM.
    If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.

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    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswald Bastable View Post
    Ahh...so you're telling me that potatohead Joe got more votes than 0bama in either of his two elections, and more than Hitlery did in 2016, a guy who was lucky to get 50 people at any of his rallies while the Donald had 10s of thousands. And that you'll also ignore the 80 plus affidavits of witnesses (which they could potentially go to jail for if found to be lying) of counting, computing errors, illegal votes, huge ballot dumps in the early morning hours in "EVERY SINGLE SWING STATE THAT MATTERED!!!".

    Boy, have I got a bridge to sell you...
    Considering we allowed people to vote from home, and sent out ballots to them whether they were requested or not, I do think it is possible that he got more votes. Whether those same votes were fraudulently or illegally cast, or if there was some other way that numbers were added to Biden's totals in numbers enough to change the outcome of the election is yet to be seen. I think there is enough evidence to warrant further investigation, but I have not seen enough evidence to allow any of us to say that the election was stolen, or that it was not. If that means you think you can sell me a bridge, you can try. I think you will find that the questions I ask, similar to the ones I am asking now, will prevent you from selling me anything you do not actually have.

    Would you like to know what is really funny about this conversation? I am having almost the exact opposite one with my BIL. He believes that there is no evidence that fraud, illegal activity, or mismanagement existed in anywhere close to the amount necessary to swing the election. My answer to him is the same as to you, I don't think we have enough information to decide one way or the other. To make a determination now, with the information available, is to show you are making decisions based on prejudice and not on actual evidence, at least not all that is available.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

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