What's so bad about a welfare state?

[Syph]

I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.

Basically, my idea of a welfare state is:

• Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)
• Free Education (To the age of 16)
• Full College Grants (For the brightest 50%)
• Full University Grants (For the brightest 30%)
• State Housing AKA Council Housing (For those on total incomes at or below £20000)
• Disability Benefit (£500 per month to £20,000 per annum)
• Unemployment Allowance (2 months maximum)

Welfare is a system designed to help the most vulnerable in society who's position is no fault of their own. The abuse that the Labour government allowed in the UK is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a safety net in our countries that have people living off the state. Nets can break under strain and as they say, hunger is a great motivator.

I'm interested to see your responses. If you don't agree with a certain part, then challenge me. I hope that some of you avoid the whole healthcare thing for the moment and focus on welfare states themselves.

[Richard Simmons]

I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.

Basically, my idea of a welfare state is:

• Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)
• Free Education (To the age of 16)
• Full College Grants (For the brightest 50%)
• Full University Grants (For the brightest 30%)
• State Housing AKA Council Housing (For those on total incomes at or below £20000)
• Disability Benefit (£500 per month to £20,000 per annum)
• Unemployment Allowance (2 months maximum)

Welfare is a system designed to help the most vulnerable in society who's position is no fault of their own. The abuse that the Labour government allowed in the UK is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a safety net in our countries that have people living off the state. Nets can break under strain and as they say, hunger is a great motivator.

I'm interested to see your responses. If you don't agree with a certain part, then challenge me. I hope that some of you avoid the whole healthcare thing for the moment and focus on welfare states themselves.

"no fault of their own"

Bullshit. That's the single biggest problem, no personal responsibility. Here's a challenge, what happens when everyone is in college, on disability and living in government housing?

P.S. Higher education is not a right.

[Tx Dogblaster]

I just can't see myself relying on the gov't for any of that stuff. None of the examples given are "rights" they're privileges. It's not the gov't responsibility to provide those things. The gov't should rely on the people for it's subsistence and not the people relying on the gov't. Their responsibility is to uphold our constitution & protect us from foreign invasion. Other than that, they need to leave us the hell alone...

[Syph]

"no fault of their own"

You can't blame everything on themselves. Some people are born severely disabled and some people are born without the mental faculties to be educated beyond 16. The economy controls wages which in turn leads to homeless people without enough money to put down a deposit for a mortgage.

Here's a challenge, what happens when everyone is in college, on disability and living in government housing?

If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live

P.S. Higher education is not a right.

No investment in the future then. Just debt, liability, inability to get a mortgage or progress up the property ladder.

Only the top 30% get into university for free. The rest get apprenticeships.

[Syph]

If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live...

...off the state, because they are vulnerable.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

P.S. Higher education is not a right.

You know, in most first world nations it is.

But you're right in a way. In the US it is not a "right", it is a "business". And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about messing with business.

Frankly though, IMHO, it is a gross mistake to not educate every one of our citizens to the highest level they are capapble of achieving. The system we have now breeds the social climate we have now. And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about our social climate...

[mriddick]

First off nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.

I think the state should only pay and support those things that benefit the state. We should also watch out for making those who don't work equal to those who do otherwise those who don't work will not see any advantage in working. We also need to watch out for only looking to the working class to pay for everything, I think we need to look at creative ways to make the nonworking pay their own way in life.

[Syph]

First off nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.

I think the state should only pay and support those things that benefit the state. We should also watch out for making those who don't work equal to those who do otherwise those who don't work will not see any advantage in working. We also need to watch out for only looking to the working class to pay for everything, I think we need to look at creative ways to make the nonworking pay their own way in life.

On the issue of funding:

10% tax rate on those earning over £21,000, 40% on those earning about £60,000 and 70% on those earning over £1,000,000. So for someone earning £27,000, they would take home £26,400. For someone earning £90,000 they would take home £74,100.
For someone earning £5,000,000 they would take home 1,765,000.

Also a 50% tax rate on all bonuses above £20,000 per annum.

It is a progressive method of taxation on the super rich to benefit the vulnerable.

[Arnulf]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

[Richard Simmons]

You know, in most first world nations it is.

But you're right in a way. In the US it is not a "right", it is a "business". And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about messing with business.

Frankly though, IMHO, it is a gross mistake to not educate every one of our citizens to the highest level they are capapble of achieving. The system we have now breeds the social climate we have now. And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about our social climate...

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level? Attending college should be about desire and ability not funding which is why we have both scholarships and people partying for 4+ years cause mom and dad are paying for it. Neither works like it should. If we were a country of nothing but people with BA or BS after our name we'd still need blue color labor so what's the higher education gotten you.

The fact is the majority of people that expect or demand that "the state" pay for something figure it'll be to their benefit and or they won't really be the ones paying for it.

[Syph]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

That is "positive" discrimination for you. "Positive" my ass. You can't force equality. However, you should definitely be able to seek legal advice if you are excluded from a job or university place because of race.

[Syph]

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level? Attending college should be about desire and ability not funding which is why we have both scholarships and people partying for 4+ years cause mom and dad are paying for it. Neither works like it should. If we were a country of nothing but people with BA or BS after our name we'd still need blue color labor so what's the higher education gotten you.

Hence why I suggested the state should only pay for the most talented 30% of of the population to go to university.

[Richard Simmons]

You can't blame everything on themselves. Some people are born severely disabled and some people are born without the mental faculties to be educated beyond 16. The economy controls wages which in turn leads to homeless people without enough money to put down a deposit for a mortgage.



If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live



No investment in the future then. Just debt, liability, inability to get a mortgage or progress up the property ladder.

Only the top 30% get into university for free. The rest get apprenticeships.

First off the majority of folks on welfare are neither physically or mentally disabled so why pander to the smallest percentage? Are you saying people with disabilities can't meet your 50% and 30% brightest criteria?

[Richard Simmons]

Hence why I suggested the state should only pay for the most talented 30% of of the population to go to university.

Actually you said "brightest 30%" not most talented. My dog is talented and compared to some, quite bright as well.

[Syph]

First off the majority of folks on welfare are neither physically or mentally disabled so why pander to the smallest percentage? Are you saying people with disabilities can't meet your 50% and 30% brightest criteria?

You are making assumptions. By disabled I mean physically handicapped (paralysis of the legs, arms, whole body); so mentally handicapped that they have difficulty reading and writing (i.e. Down's syndrome) by genetics or accident.

Physically handicapped people will receive some form of support unless they earn more than £60,000 a year and pay the mid tax rate.

[Syph]

Actually you said "brightest 30%" not most talented. My dog is talented and compared to some, quite bright as well.

My mistake. Basically, the top 30% of people who take the SAT or academic test in the final year or high school/college (for the UK).

[Richard Simmons]

You are making assumptions. By disabled I mean physically handicapped (paralysis of the legs, arms, whole body); so mentally handicapped that they have difficulty reading and writing (i.e. Down's syndrome) by genetics or accident.

Physically handicapped people will receive some form of support unless they earn more than £60,000 a year and pay the mid tax rate.

Bullshit again. The individuals that you describe are in fact not the majority in this country. Perhaps they are in England.

[Syph]

Bullshit again. The individuals that you describe are in fact not the majority in this country. Perhaps they are in England.

No, that's the whole point. You are funding the lives of the tiny unfortunate minority. They cannot help themselves so they require the help of the state.

[Syph]

No, that's the whole point. You are funding the lives of the tiny unfortunate minority. They cannot help themselves so they require the help of the state.

The cheats can starve for all I care. Lazy beggars.

[mriddick]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

No, believe it or not education is free if you are poor enough, I've known quite a few very poor people of all races who went to college free, it's the people who just make enough on up that pay.