It's nice to be a world power huh?Originally Posted by Full Otto
We get enforce laws we want to, and veto stuff we don't like.
No wonder the rest of the world hates us.
It's nice to be a world power huh?
We get enforce laws we want to, and veto stuff we don't like.
No wonder the rest of the world hates us.
That's the reality of the situation, yes.
IMO Israel has a right to exist because it does. Palestine as a practical matter is surrounded by Israel and wants to destroy Israel so they are being destroyed by Israel.
Israel does not want Palestine outright destroyed quickly and violently because if they did that politically cut off from their lifeline with the USA.
But Israel does want to absorb Palestine so they don't have little pockets of enemy forces scattered inside their boarders.
And yes, all this came about by way of a faustian bargain made by the USA, the UK, Arabs and Jews- what none of them anticipated was the huge surge in Islamic fervor throughout the region.
And here we are.
Maintain Israel as a beachhead in the ME for the USA or ditch it if it’s not tenable anymore.
Justify either decision any way one wants to but both have big consequences- as does half assing the situation.
For me, if we were to cut them off militarily I would like to see them welcomed here as refugees in as orderly and long-lasting an evacuation as possible. They’re smart, hard working people that are playing the hand they’ve been dealt in life.
If we keep them there, we may well be wading into WWIII in another few years. Maybe we need to, I don't know yet. But we better figure it out soon.
What I do know is anti-Semitic folks that want to cut and run on the people we put there make me sick.
People that think the Islamic world and the UN can be opposed by way of moralizing are kidding themselves- Islam wants Jewish blood.
So what do we do?
So if the UN passed the resolution, how can they now say it is illegal?UNSCOP, The United Nations Committee on Palestine, held hearings on September 1, 1947, to decide what course of action to recommend to the UN regarding Palestine.
UNSCOP recommended to partition Palestine into two states – one Jewish and one Arab. This Partition Plan was rejected by all the Arab states. The resolution was passed in the United Nations with a vote of 33-13.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Those were some great points and good questions.
What do we do?
Well, I'd have to start with what we "shouldn't" do first.
We shouldn't allow ourselves to get sucked into your WW3 by fighting for a nation that doesn't legally exist in the first place.
We are already doing enough fighting as it is in the middle east without needing to be drawn into yet another theatre.
We'd also have to face the harsh facts that Israel's very existence is the major reason for all the unrest in the middle east.
It's also a huge reason for all the anti-Americanism there too.
Israel doesn't have the legal grounds to "absorb" Palestine.
It's the other way around, and the rest of the middle east all know it.
The only ones saying otherwise is Israel and us, but that's about it.
In short, we're wrong.
Sucks...but it's true.
This hatred and violence will never end. Never. Until Israel ceases to be a nation anymore.
They will eventually be attacked heavily and possibly destroyed.
Question is, is it actually worth it to sacrifice the lives of who knows how many American boys defending a Nation that's illegal in the first place?
IMHO, the answer is no.
Since America is in fact responsible for the continued support of Israel, then I have no problems with your idea of accepting Israeli refugees.
At the same time, Israel should give the land back to Palestine and help restore peace to the middle east.
If not, like you already said and know, a whole lot of people are eventually going to die.
And if America "does" get involved, then we are going to lose a lot of young people of our own too.
And worse yet, they will die while fighting for the wrong side.
It's tricky.
But in short, Israel was never meant to go from temporary occupiers to a full fledge nation.
So at the time, that resolution was fine.
But 35 years later, Israeli's are still there and formed a country.
This was not the plan and it's illegal under International Law.
That's why the UN is now coming back to the issue and saying "Hey!" "WTF you guys?"
How do you figure it doesn't legally exist?
Britain held it in accordance with the UN, Jews bought most of it, the UN decided to partition it, which happened, Israel accepted the partition and declared independence, the Arabs attacked it, Israelis held and expanded it during the attack, the UN voted to accept UN membership for it as a country.
So it was legally given, plus bought, plus held by force of arms when attacked...how is it not theirs?
As to America "propping it up", yeah we give them aid, although they buy 4 times that from us which kind of makes it a nice deal for us, add to that the aid really didn't start until Israel had held its own against multiple attackers for 20 plus years and what 4 major wars. Yeah, us helping them certainly helps, but in 48 they got attacked by what six countries and held their own with no help from anyone.
As to why some of the Muslims hate us, 9/11 happened because radicals were unhappy we had troops in Saudi Arabia, Osama said that specifically. We weren't there because of Israel, we were there because Saudi Arabia wanted us to help make sure their country wasn't attacked by Iraq. We were protecting Muslims from other Muslims.
If countries keep attacking you from the same high ground, ports, etc...over and over, and you have to keep beating them back, eventually you're going to decide not to hand back that same territory and give them a stronghold to attack from again.
That's just common sense...if a child is walking around hitting people with a stick, you take away the stick and punish the child. When that is done, you tend to not hand them back the stick!
But yet for the Israelis it's still not about religion, 20% of Israeli citizens are muslim, with full civil rights, they have voted in muslims for roughly 20% of their parliament, Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel. Israel offered citizenship to pretty much all muslims who wanted it after the war in disputed territories, they didn't want it.
But yet, those non-citizen muslims who live in "occupied territory" still get to vote in local elections (not nationwide, but local), they still have civil rights and can petition the courts, yada, yada, yada.
Pretty much all the countries surrounding them admit Israel has a right to exist, but certain territories are still in dispute. Lots of countries have disputed borders, I think the US and Canada still have a good half dozen disputed areas on our border. Land borders kinda tend to suck.
I think I kinda agree with this comment. war is hell, you loose, too f-cking bad. win next time. than the outcome would be illegal in someone elses eyes? what a dumbass thing to say.. And what defines a 'legal' war? sorry, just tired of the bullshit. You are a racist plain and simple!!!
Reality is what is, not what we think it should be, or what was "meant to be".
We took parts of mexico by war, was it illegal? should we give it back? We took the 13 colonies from England, was that war legal? If you hate Isreal or the jews, than just admit it and dont try to hide behind some history that means absolutely nothing today.
You can hate a countries government for what it does, or hate the race.
The people of any given country don't always agree with what their government does so if you hate all Jews for what the Isreal government does, your a racist and no better than islamic radicals who think all Americans should die.
if you hate ALL jews, then your a racist, just admit it, real simple, either way, most people here could care less, you just need to be honest with us and yourself.
Agreed.
Wart
That's some pretty twisted logic you're tied up in there. So, what, the UN gave them Israel so they could, like camp there for a few years, maybe until their Airstream trailers were ready from the factory? Or were they maybe supposed to build themselves some nice concentration camps of their own to live in, because they'd gotten used to it, until the UN decided where they should go next? I don't recall the UN coming out with any further resolutions that they should move on; can you point to one?
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 02-21-2011 at 11:54 PM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Let's stop the illegal occupation of muslim land!!!!! Whatever...
Originally the land of the Philistines (Palestine's etymological name), Canaan was the "Promised Land" of Moses' era. So, in essence, it's been the land of the Hebrews since 1200ish BC!
I don't care who you are, or what you believe, if you believe it's muslim land (Islam came about around 600AD), you're a moron. There have been no "Philistines" for a few thousand years. The land is rightfully Hebrew...
The Guns Network | Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!
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'Why' is the land rightfully Hebrew ??
Wart
LMFAO... so Texas goes back to Mexico... Then the whole southwest... How about a HUGE BULLSHIT on that one... One gets attacked and fights, one keeps what one wins... take it buddy...
What year was it addopted by the WHOLE FUCK'N WORLD? How about the third of never...
Last edited by El Laton Caliente; 02-21-2011 at 11:58 PM.
Today? Because the UN and the free world gave it to them after WWII on a vote of 33-13.
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 02-22-2011 at 12:01 AM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
I guess you're a little slow... BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN FOR 3000 YEARS!
...Notwithstanding the fact that it was officially made sovereign in 1948. Remember, the UN didn't even exist until 1945. Who said a country was sovereign before that time??? The prior League Of Nations only had a few dozen members.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!
The Guns Network | Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!
☣ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ☣
Problems with reading comprehension?
Not to mention that China needs to give Tibet back to the Tibetans (yeah, that'll happen) or that everyone whose ancestors originated in the old world needs to vacate the new, moving back to Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., etc., so the indigenous people can have their land back.
And while we're at it, I demand the Italians vacate Italy and leave it to the descendants of the Etruscans, the English leave England and give it back to the Celts, and by God every muslim on the planet better move back to Mecca where islam originated, and leave the rest of the ME and North Africa to the polytheists, animists and Zoroastrians!
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Lemme try again...
Following your logic, you go on vacation, leave your grandmother at home, ten armed illegals move in and they own your house... mmmk...
The Romans, under Titus, took Israel from the Jews in AD70 (after occupying the land for 1000 years). And even though many Jews fled, and 'dispersed' throughout the world, many were still in Israel after that siege. Many were slaves. Even in the 6th Century there were still close to 50 Jewish colonies in Jerusalem... Then came Muhammed, the Byzantines, Mongols, Turks, et al...
So, even though their numbers were few, they still occupied that tiny little spot in the middle of that huge islamic empire. The Bible (Deuteronomy 30:3, Ezekiel 20:34) even predicted the return of the Jews to the land of Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in the days following May 14, 1948 as Millions of Jews returned to Israel from 120 nations around the world...
The Guns Network | Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!
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Yup I am a little slow.I guess you're a little slow... BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN FOR 3000 YEARS!
But by your logic would not the United States all be owned by the American Indians ?? Thinking their ancestors have been here more than 10,000 years.
Wart
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