O'h hail yes...I've known plenty of women who should have been hit in the head with a rock by...brother, father, mother, uncle, aunt...total stranger...all good...and I wasn't married to all of them but 'they' were really 'bad' as only a woman can be...!Originally Posted by Kadmos
Diesel 88888888
So, now you're claiming Christianity is the cause of 45 murders every day here in the US? So far, all of the local murders that have hit the news here, have been allegedly caused by robbery, drugs, or fights that broke out at nightclubs. Not once has a newspaper, or TV station, said anything about the killer being so religious that he felt the need to kill someone else to uphold God's word.
As for your claim about us stating that Muslims do most of their killing for religious reasons, yes, we do....because 99% of them ARE killings for religious reasons...jihad, honor killings, etc. Those aren't "cultural" issues, those are "religious" issues.
What the hell are you talking about. This is what you asked and what I answered.
"Let me ask you this N/A....are they wrong? Do you belive that the "who cares" attitude about adultery is detrimental to America? Do you think there should be punishments? And on what moral grounds do you think it should be so, or not be so?"
We are talking about adultery and how it is handled in each culture. Do i think it is wrong. If you take a vow to be faithful and you are not, then you are wrong.
Do I think we should emulate the Muslims and kill women for adultery? Hell no. Divorce is the only solution if you can not reconcile with each other.
Do I think adultery is a crime? Again, hell no.
Do i think we should make it a crime, punishable by death. Fuck no.
Is there a solution to adultery? Get real.
I didn't blame other people for adultery happening so often...I condem other people for thinking it is acceptable,...nay, even required, to kill a woman because of adultery. Hell, if you Jews stoned women to death for adultery I would condem you too.
If the Mormons stoned women to death for adultery I would condem them too.
That Muslims stone women to death for adultery more than you Jews do goes without saying. Yet you seem accepting of it simply by saying, "Oy, a rose by any other name....." Bullshit, murder by any other name is still murder....only some cultures seem to think if you call it "up holding the family honor", it isn't murder. You seem to agree.
You can argue around every semantic you want to, you can try to equate all kinds of things simply by saying they go by different names. But you have your logic so twisted up you trip over it. No wonder you Jews have to have so many interpretations of what is acceptable....you can't keep up with what is and isn't at any given time. Geeze.
No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR
We Jews have 'many' laws...however, they still requires two (2) witnesses to convict or condemn someone...anyone!
Diesel 88888888
That is what I asked for.
Basically you are saying adultery is wrong, but should not be against the law, and the only punishment should be divorce.
That's fine, it's as good an opinion as any.
The "get real" pretty much states that you really don't have strong feelings about this, that's fine also.
However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are some behaviors that you have such strong feeling about that you would accept murder as reasonable under the "he needed killing" defense.
For instance child molesting....in much of the world child molesting, while a crime, wasn't really considered to be all that big of a deal, usually a priest, piano teacher, or odd uncle was involved....there was little if any actual physical injury to the child, and it was understood that if you treat the kid like nothing happened the kid would likely grow up fine.
Please understand, I am NOT saying child molesting is ok, I'm not defending it, I'm just saying for much of history, in much of the world, it wasn't a big deal.
But how many fathers in America would kill or really want to kill the molester of their kids? My guess is the percentage is pretty high...hell I know I'm in that category, if someone molested my kid I know I would want to watch them gasp their last breath with my hands wrapped around their throat!
But lets face it, at it's core this is an "honor killing". Just as Seppuku for the Japanese is essentially an "honor killing", just as the man who kills his wife because she cheated is an "honor killing", just as the father who killed his daughter by bringing shame to the family for getting raped is an "honor killing".
Almost all of these forms have parallels in nearly every culture, Americans still blame rape victims fairly often, we suicide over "honor" reasons, etc.
About the only thing that could get me to kill my daughter would be her bringing home or having sex with a toad, married or not, but first the toad!
You are ignoring the correct definition of "adultery" in favor of the popularly held view and for this reason many arguments herein fail, supra.
Diesel 88888888
That's what I'm saying, the culture we live in puts the blame in a different direction, but the base feelings are often the same for other behaviors.
I'm going by the common definition. I believe the word that better suits what you seem to be describing is Miscegenation.You are ignoring the correct definition of "adultery" in favor of the popularly held view and for this reason many arguments herein fail, supra.
Didn't this start with
Deuteronomy 22:22
22 “If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman.
Not the ten commandments
For peace of mind, resign as general manager of the universe
Your point is well taken...and I repeat; according to Jewish law it takes two witnesses to convict...so, you may have caught your wife getting stuped by Ahab...but you still need two other witnesses to the act in order to do anything...and then only after the 'court' approves.
Diesel 88888888
The rest of your post was just a reiteration of trying to equate all death as being caused by someones "honor"...BS!
No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR
I just let him have her. I was tired of the bitch anywayYour point is well taken...and I repeat; according to Jewish law it takes two witnesses to convict...so, you may have caught your wife getting stuped by Ahab...but you still need two other witnesses to the act in order to do anything...and then only after the 'court' approves.
Diesel 88888888
For peace of mind, resign as general manager of the universe
You are a very sick fuck if you believe just because there was little physical injury, the child would likely grow up just fine. That's like saying a neglected, verbally and emotionally abused child, because there was little physical injury, would likely grow up just fine...when we know that's an excellent path to creating sociopaths.
The more things I see you excuse (because it's done somewhere, in some culture) the more I'm sickened. And given that last bit of sophism, I'm inclined to believe you likely have a "thing" for children, as that's the type of reasoning molesters use to excuse their actions.
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 12-10-2012 at 11:03 PM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Actually, we know nothing of the sort. We surmise that to be the case, but there is very little actual proof. But we also do know that there used to be quite a bit of molestation that didn't appear, at least outwardly, to make any real difference to quality of life.
Just as we know that in decades and centuries past, children were physically abused (I'm talking beaten here, not sexual abuse) as a matter of due course, it was extremely common, and certainly didn't keep most of them from living full and happy lives.
Nope, I don't have a thing for children. But what I am able to do is discuss difficult subjects in a detached manner. Every culture has aspects that would sicken some other culture but are seen as of little consequence to that culture.The more things I see you excuse (because it's done somewhere, in some culture) the more I'm sickened. And given that last bit of sophism, I'm inclined to believe you likely have a "thing" for children, as that's the type of reasoning molesters use to excuse their actions.
It's very easy to look at other cultures and say "this is horrendous" while there are similar horrors in one's own culture that are completely overlooked.
Yes it is horrible that many Muslims treat their women in such a manner....but conversely, I am well aware that we give the death penalty to mentally defective children for crimes that they can't even comprehend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuseNeurological damage
Research has shown that traumatic stress, including stress caused by sexual abuse, causes notable changes in brain functioning and development.[73][74] Various studies have suggested that severe child sexual abuse may have a deleterious effect on brain development. Ito et al. (1998) found "reversed hemispheric asymmetry and greater left hemisphere coherence in abused subjects;"[75] Teicher et al. (1993) found that an increased likelihood of "ictal temporal lobe epilepsy-like symptoms" in abused subjects;[76] Anderson et al. (2002) recorded abnormal transverse relaxation time in the cerebellar vermis of adults sexually abused in childhood;[77] Teicher et al. (1993) found that child sexual abuse was associated with a reduced corpus callosum area; various studies have found an association of reduced volume of the left hippocampus with child sexual abuse;[78] and Ito et al. (1993) found increased electrophysiological abnormalities in sexually abused children.[79]
Some studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system.[78] Teicher et al. (1993)[76] used the "Limbic System Checklist-33" to measure ictal temporal lobe epilepsy-like symptoms in 253 adults. Reports of child sexual abuse were associated with a 49% increase to LSCL-33 scores, 11% higher than the associated increase of self-reported physical abuse. Reports of both physical and sexual abuse were associated with a 113% increase. Male and female victims were similarly affected.[76][80]
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/fac...nsequences.cfmPhysical Health Consequences
The immediate physical effects of abuse or neglect can be relatively minor (bruises or cuts) or severe (broken bones, hemorrhage, or even death). In some cases the physical effects are temporary; however, the pain and suffering they cause a child should not be discounted. Meanwhile, the long-term impact of child abuse and neglect on physical health is just beginning to be explored. According to the National Survey of Child and Adolescent Well-Being (NSCAW), more than one-quarter of children who had been in foster care for longer than 12 months had some lasting or recurring health problem (Administration for Children and Families, Office of Planning, Research, and Evaluation [ACF/OPRE], 2004a). Below are some outcomes researchers have identified:
Shaken baby syndrome. Shaking a baby is a common form of child abuse. The injuries caused by shaking a baby may not be immediately noticeable and may include bleeding in the eye or brain, damage to the spinal cord and neck, and rib or bone fractures (National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, 2007).
Impaired brain development. Child abuse and neglect have been shown, in some cases, to cause important regions of the brain to fail to form or grow properly, resulting in impaired development (De Bellis & Thomas, 2003). These alterations in brain maturation have long-term consequences for cognitive, language, and academic abilities (Watts-English, Fortson, Gibler, Hooper, & De Bellis, 2006). NSCAW found more than three-quarters of foster children between 1 and 2 years of age to be at medium to high risk for problems with brain development, as opposed to less than half of children in a control sample (ACF/OPRE, 2004a).
Poor physical health. Several studies have shown a relationship between various forms of household dysfunction (including childhood abuse) and poor health (Flaherty et al., 2006; Felitti, 2002). Adults who experienced abuse or neglect during childhood are more likely to suffer from physical ailments such as allergies, arthritis, asthma, bronchitis, high blood pressure, and ulcers (Springer, Sheridan, Kuo, & Carnes, 2007).
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Psychological Consequences
The immediate emotional effects of abuse and neglect—isolation, fear, and an inability to trust—can translate into lifelong consequences, including low self-esteem, depression, and relationship difficulties. Researchers have identified links between child abuse and neglect and the following:
Difficulties during infancy. Depression and withdrawal symptoms were common among children as young as 3 who experienced emotional, physical, or environmental neglect. (Dubowitz, Papas, Black, & Starr, 2002).
Poor mental and emotional health. In one long-term study, as many as 80 percent of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least one psychiatric disorder at age 21. These young adults exhibited many problems, including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and suicide attempts (Silverman, Reinherz, & Giaconia, 1996). Other psychological and emotional conditions associated with abuse and neglect include panic disorder, dissociative disorders, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, depression, anger, posttraumatic stress disorder, and reactive attachment disorder (Teicher, 2000; De Bellis & Thomas, 2003; Springer, Sheridan, Kuo, & Carnes, 2007).
Cognitive difficulties. NSCAW found that children placed in out-of-home care due to abuse or neglect tended to score lower than the general population on measures of cognitive capacity, language development, and academic achievement (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2003). A 1999 LONGSCAN study also found a relationship between substantiated child maltreatment and poor academic performance and classroom functioning for school-age children (Zolotor, Kotch, Dufort, Winsor, & Catellier, 1999).
Social difficulties. Children who experience rejection or neglect are more likely to develop antisocial traits as they grow up. Parental neglect is also associated with borderline personality disorders and violent behavior (Schore, 2003).
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Behavioral Consequences
Not all victims of child abuse and neglect will experience behavioral consequences. However, behavioral problems appear to be more likely among this group, even at a young age. An NSCAW survey of children ages 3 to 5 in foster care found these children displayed clinical or borderline levels of behavioral problems at a rate of more than twice that of the general population (ACF, 2004b). Later in life, child abuse and neglect appear to make the following more likely:
Difficulties during adolescence. Studies have found abused and neglected children to be at least 25 percent more likely to experience problems such as delinquency, teen pregnancy, low academic achievement, drug use, and mental health problems (Kelley, Thornberry, & Smith, 1997). Other studies suggest that abused or neglected children are more likely to engage in sexual risk-taking as they reach adolescence, thereby increasing their chances of contracting a sexually transmitted disease (Johnson, Rew, & Sternglanz, 2006).
Juvenile delinquency and adult criminality. According to a National Institute of Justice study, abused and neglected children were 11 times more likely to be arrested for criminal behavior as a juvenile, 2.7 times more likely to be arrested for violent and criminal behavior as an adult, and 3.1 times more likely to be arrested for one of many forms of violent crime (juvenile or adult) (English, Widom, & Brandford, 2004).
Alcohol and other drug abuse. Research consistently reflects an increased likelihood that abused and neglected children will smoke cigarettes, abuse alcohol, or take illicit drugs during their lifetime (Dube et al., 2001). According to a report from the National Institute on Drug Abuse, as many as two-thirds of people in drug treatment programs reported being abused as children (Swan, 1998).
Abusive behavior. Abusive parents often have experienced abuse during their own childhoods. It is estimated approximately one-third of abused and neglected children will eventually victimize their own children (Prevent Child Abuse New York, 2003).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuseEnglish, et al.[34] report that children whose families are characterized by interpersonal violence, including psychological aggression and verbal aggression, may exhibit a range of serious disorders, including chronic depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, dissociation and anger. Additionally, English et al. report that the impact of emotional abuse "did not differ significantly" from that of physical abuse. Johnson et al.[35] report that, in a survey of female patients (n = 825), 24% suffered emotional abuse, and this group experienced higher rates of gynecological problems. In their study of men emotionally abused by a wife/partner or parent (n = 116), Hines and Malley-Morrison[36] report that victims exhibit high rates of post traumatic stress disorder, drug addiction and alcoholism.
Namie's study[27] of workplace emotional abuse found that 31% of women and 21% of men who reported workplace emotional abuse exhibited three key symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (hypervigilance, intrusive imagery, and avoidance behaviors). A 1998 study of male college students (n = 70) by Simonelli & Ingram[37] found that men who were emotionally abused by their female partners exhibited higher rates of chronic depression than the general population.
A study of college students (N = 80) by Goldsmith and Freyd[38] report that many who have experienced emotional abuse do not characterize the mistreatment as abusive. Additionally, Goldsmith and Freyd show that these people also tend to exhibit higher than average rates of alexithymia (difficulty identifying and processing their own emotions).
http://schizophreniaforum.org/new/detail.asp?id=164323 December 2010. Children victimized by abuse subsequently carry a heavy psychological burden, but whether that includes susceptibility to psychosis has remained unproven. Two new studies sidestepped certain methodological pitfalls that often hinder efforts to answer this question. In a case-control study in the November Archives of General Psychiatry, researchers in Australia, including Paul Mullen of Monash University, Victoria, tied documented child abuse involving sexual penetration to increased risk of later developing schizophrenia or psychotic disorders in general. A study of twins in the United Kingdom found that children who were physically harmed by adults or bullied by other children were more likely than their peers to report psychotic symptoms at age 12. The study, led by Louise Arseneault, Institute of Psychiatry, London, appeared online in the American Journal of Psychiatry on October 15.
That took me all of five minutes to find. Yeah, looks like a prerequisite to a happy and fulfilling life with sunshine and unicorns bestowed upon all who later interact intimately with such children.
Oh goody for you...you're able to detach yourself completely from that which, to anyone else, is a complete abomination...you must be so proud, as well as dead from the neck up. I'm sure you'd have been just as able to detach yourself from the gas chambers and ovens of Auschwitz, had there been internet forums in 1942.
And which of those horrors are overlooked in our society? Be specific...you know, all those that are considered mainstream, not punished by imprisonment, such as is the case in many muslim societies with honor killings and pedophilia.
Once again, an attempt to justify one wrong with another...a glaring hallmark of "so called" liberal logic.
What next...shall we discuss (in a detached manner) how war doesn't really affect soldiers, or civilians in the conflict area, in any particularly detrimental fashion...because many of them go on to lead full and happy lives?
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 12-11-2012 at 12:55 AM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Guess you missed these parts
Which were my point.Not all victims of child abuse and neglect will experience behavioral consequences.
The immediate physical effects of abuse or neglect can be relatively minor (bruises or cuts)
I'm obviously not saying child abuse is normal, healthy, or good for children.
But, the fact is, the most common types don't appear to have all that much effect.
Most of the bad stuff listed was prefaced by things like "studies suggest that it may..."
I didn't say completely, but certainly enough to have a conversation about most anything. I'm an adult, able to discuss all types of things without fainting away from a bad case of the vapors.Oh goody for you...you're able to detach yourself completely from that which, to anyone else, is a complete abomination...you must be so proud, as well as dead from the neck up. I'm sure you'd have been just as able to detach yourself from the gas chambers and ovens of Auschwitz, had there been internet forums in 1942.
I guess it goes alongside that conservative logic that says "Oh my god that guy just said not every molested child becomes a psychopath, that's just the same as saying child molesting is ok, he must be a child molester!!!"Once again, an attempt to justify one wrong with another...a glaring hallmark of "so called" liberal logic.
Grow up, I'm not saying anything to justify anything else, what I'm saying is pretty much every culture does things which are considered heinous to another, but if not completely acceptable, at least understandable and usually quietly supported by another.
I'm not saying "We kill retarded kids, so it's ok for them to kill daughters who wear short skirts". I'm saying that they do bad shit, we do bad shit, making them out to be animals and us out to be pure, is ridiculous.
So how many destroyed lives (in comparison to the "not all") are acceptable? Because that is what you're arguing.
More sophism. To even suggest that because a few don't suffer the effects that many do, that makes it less heinous is no different than saying because a few Jews escaped or survived the Nazi purge, and went on to life happy lives, it really doesn't matter how many were gassed or machine gunned and buried in mass graves...lots of 'em lived and got over it...as you appear to have done, given your mental gymnastics to even attempt to state pedophilia isn't destructive.
So then, genocide is certainly worth discussing in a reasonable and rational manner, right? I mean, after all, the rest of the world goes on, people work, reproduce and live happy lives, even when one group is exterminated, particularly if it doesn't really affect those not targeted?
I'm not saying every molested child becomes a psychopath...obviously they don't. But you're the one attempting to suggest there aren't deep and destructive psychological and social ramification of pedophilia. You're the one attempting to justify it in some way as being "not so bad"...well by that definition, neither is limited genocide...so who do we start with in the discussion? Jews? Old white guys? Blacks?
Oh but you are. By suggesting that the fallout "isn't as bad as all that" you are justifying it, in the same way any group is targeted for extermination (it's not that bad, it's only them...it doesn't hurt us). Hey, let's have a nice, rational, detached conversation about human vivisection...what the hell, many of the subjects may not die, and they may go on to have wonderful and fulfilling lives. How about chem/bio/nuclear experiments on humans...many of them may survive with minimal physical effect and live happy lives as well.
That you can't see you are justifying all of that by your argument, speaks volumes.
If anyone needs to grow up here, it's you!
I'm still waiting for your detailed list!
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
No, it's not what I am arguing.
But apparently it's what you want me to be arguing
I've had many reasonable and rational discussions about genocide, I think it's a topic very worth discussing.So then, genocide is certainly worth discussing in a reasonable and rational manner, right?
Obviously not in a "What do you guys want to do tonight?...anyone up for some genocide?" type of way.
There is a vast difference between discussing a topic and advocating for an action.
Maybe it's a conservative thing and my liberal mind just doesn't get that any time someone talks about something it means they want to do it. Nothing can ever be discussed in the abstract.
I didn't think you were.I'm not saying every molested child becomes a psychopath...obviously they don't.
And I'm not saying that every molested child isn't a psychopath, obviously some are.
Of course it could be coincidental in many cases as well.
Correct!But you're the one attempting to suggest there aren't deep and destructive psychological and social ramification of pedophilia.
That is what I am suggesting...sort of.
I am saying that in many, if not most cases of sexual abuse, the actual physical harm is usually minor, the psychic harm *may* also be minor as well.
I'm not saying that it doesn't hurt the kids, that it's ok to do or anything like that...I'm simply saying that likely in most cases the actual harm is fairly minor.
However, and this is the point I was trying to make, the adults have decided that that pedophilia is always extremely harmful, worthy of dad murdering someone, worthy of multimillion dollar lawsuits.
In some ways I think this is worse for the child in the long run (again, in many cases).
What was a minor incident to them suddenly becomes this giant deal, parents rending their clothes, calling for blood, etc.
It makes kids feel damaged.
Hell there was a thread here awhile ago about a guy who shot his kids molester, caught on tape, and the kid (now grown up) was pissed at his dad for it, saying it made him feel worse, like it was a bigger deal than it was, like he was ruined as a son, damaged goods.
No, I'm not. And I hope you understand that by now. Yes obviously abusing a child is bad. But it doesn't have to be end of the world, earth shattering, damaged goods bad as we make it out to be. Part of that is our society.Oh but you are. By suggesting that the fallout "isn't as bad as all that" you are justifying it
Sorry to put it crassly, but there a fifty cent crimes and fifty buck crimes...something my uncle used to say.
That picture your mom took of you as a baby, naked in the tub, or on a bear skin rug...some people call that kiddy porn now, child abuse...did it turn you into a psychopath....or was that something else?
Enough with the niggling and pettifogging, islam is a murder cult, noting more, and what they do to their ugly women is their business...if they want to kill all of them it is not our concern...but it does mean fewer muzzies that we have to kill one day.
Let them kill each other over some ass hole crawling out of a well in Iraq...makes perfectly good sense to me!
Diesel 88888888
So what are you arguing, apart from, some losses are acceptable...in your opinion, apparently?
And where does such an argument go, apart from, it's vile and evil?
Still waiting for answers, which you keep dodging, just as lefty does...
Moral relativists are all alike, they've nothing of substance to rest their feet on, therefore they believe the world is all slippery sand. That is why they fail, at everything the set their hands to.
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 12-12-2012 at 12:10 AM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Dammit, just lost 20 minutes of typing because I hit the wrong button...now I'm going with the abbreviated version.....you are welcome
I didn't say anything even close to "losses are acceptable"
what I am arguing can be seen in the above post starting with the phrase "I am saying that in many...
All kind of things, why it happens, how to stop it, types of propaganda, should 3rd parties get involved. Many many books have been written on the subject and it can get very involved.And where does such an argument go, apart from, it's vile and evil?
(I really cut that down, but I hope you get the drift)
I assume you mean to thisStill waiting for answers, which you keep dodging, just as lefty does...
I gave two already, adultery and state sponsored execution of mentally defective children. I'm not going to do a detailed list of all possible US crimes cross referenced against crimes in 60 some odd other countries...either write that book yourself or wait for the movieAnd which of those horrors are overlooked in our society? Be specific...you know, all those that are considered mainstream, not punished by imprisonment, such as is the case in many muslim societies with honor killings and pedophilia
However, it is worth pointing out that while these two examples are totally legal in the US, there is no country on earth I know of where Honor killing or pedophilia are legal
I suppose, aside from Herodotus, Spinoza, Hume, Nietzsche, anthropologists like Benedict and Westermarck, and more recently neuroscience....you know 2,500+ years of western thought.Moral relativists are all alike, they've nothing of substance to rest their feet on, therefore they believe the world is all slippery sand. That is why they fail, at everything the set their hands to.
Nor should you think that even the most extreme normative moral relativist has nothing to base acceptable behaviour on, all I am aware of still base it on actual harm to another.
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